Video with Transcript: Avi Shlaim on Arab-Jews, Zionism and Israel

Transcript

0:02

you come across as somebody who one can only describe as a real humanitarian my Arab identity was

0:09

erased Arabic was really looked down upon as a primitive language and the

0:15

language uh of the enemy and settler colonialism didn't begin in

0:22

1967 it was a continuation o of process my Army the Army I knew became

0:31

the brutal police force of a brutal colonial

0:39

power the mainstream media has been justifying genocide in Gaza islamophobia

0:45

and censorship are the norm we're changing that our journalism has reached

0:52

over 300 million impressions on social media since October the 7th on TV our

0:59

rolling news cover has featured key figures like husam zlet AI schlame Gideon Levy and Jeremy

1:07

Corbin we need your support to reveal the truth and ensure our voices are

1:13

heard so donate today at support. Islam channel.tv

1:22

thank you for joining me on the Islam Channel podcast now today my guest is

1:27

none other than the world British Israeli Professor AI

1:33

schlame Professor schlame is an ameritus fellow of St Anthony's college and an

1:39

Emeritus professor of international relations at the University of Oxford he

1:45

is one of Israel's new historians a group of Israeli Scholars who put

1:50

forward critical interpretations of the history of Zionism and

1:55

Israel Professor schim was born to wealthy jewi Jewish parents in Baghdad

2:01

in 1945 and like many Iraqi Jews his family were forced to move to the newly created

2:08

state of Israel in 1947 Professor schlame welcome to the

2:13

Islam Channel podcast it's a pleasure to be here no the pleasure is all ours I mean Professor schlame you are somebody

2:20

who is uh world-renowned and I think our viewers will understand when I say world renown it's not a title to be taken

2:27

lightly you are known across the Muslim and world you're also known in Western

2:32

literary literary circles and also in Academia for the work that you've done but today's podcast is more about

2:38

finding who is uh with all respect Avi schlame when we take away the title

2:45

professor and uh you are very kind enough to gift me one of your books uh which is a fascinating read into the

2:53

life of a of who you describe to be an Arab Jew a title which many will think

2:58

well actually does that actually exist is there such a thing as an Arab Jew three worlds is the book that I'm

3:04

talking about and our viewers will see the title in the uh graphic that we'll put as I'm speaking uh tell us how your

3:13

family uh felt as Iraqi Arabs Arab Jews in fact uh before Israel was even

3:21

thought of as a as as an idea so I was born in Baghdad in

3:26

1945 to a Jewish Family MH and in 1950 we moved to Israel rather

3:35

reluctantly as you suggested uh because we were Iraqi

3:42

Jews we had very deep roots in the country uh the Jews were in Iraq uh for

3:51

2 and a half Millennia um since the Babylonian exile

3:58

we were in Iraq long before the rise of uh Islam so we are not newcomers and we

4:06

are certainly not Intruders we were children of the

4:11

land um and we were Arab

4:17

Jews um we were Iraqis whose religion

4:23

happened to be Judaism yeah but Judaism wasn't our main identifier

4:30

um we are Iraqis to all intents and purposes yeah uh but our religion was

4:38

Judaism um and we spoke Arabic at home we only spoke Arabic at home um our

4:46

social Customs were Arab Customs um our food was many was uh

4:54

Middle Eastern uh food yeah and uh we had many Muslim

5:01

friends uh as well as Christian friends fisel I first the first king of Iraq who

5:10

after the first world war had the job of unifying many diverse groups in Iraq

5:16

into one nation yeah uh made a special effort to embrace the Jews and my mother

5:24

who went to the alance isra alance Israelite un

5:30

in Baghdad the School for Girls remembers when King fisel I first came

5:36

to visit her school and um he uh he was accompanied by the chief Rabbi wow um so

5:46

uh the Jews there were Jewish communities throughout the Arab world

5:52

there were Jewish communities in Egypt in Syria in Lebanon but the largest

5:58

Jewish Comm Community was in Iraq and it was also the wealthiest the most prosperous the most

6:05

successful um community and it contributed um uh at every level to

6:13

nation building yes so we had a a strong sense of belonging uh in

6:21

Iraq um and um my mother used to talk a

6:26

great deal about the Jewish contribution positive Jewish contribution to all

6:34

aspects of life in Iraq and she also used to talk about the wonderful Muslim friends that we had in Baghdad yes and

6:41

one day I asked her um did we also have Zionist friends and she looked at me as

6:49

if this was a very strange question and she said no Zionism is an ashkanazi

6:54

thing it's nothing to do W with us and ashkanazi would be um a a Jew from

7:01

Europe okay as opposed to a Safar Jew that is a Jew from um from the Middle

7:08

East or North Africa okay so in in in term just let's stay with Iraq and the

7:15

community the Jewish Community there uh you say they were integrated the cultures and Moors I suppose were Arab

7:23

in all with all in all intents and purposes uh perhaps the dress and the lifestyle would you say then your links

7:31

to the ashkanazi the European Jew were more in terms of being co-religionist as

7:37

opposed to anything else in terms of how you viewed the world and your place in the

7:42

world yes I would say that most definitely because we lived in Iraq uh

7:50

we spoke Arabic um linguistically and culturally we had

7:56

much more in common with other Iraq whether Muslims or Christian then we had

8:03

with our co-religionists from Europe um we didn't know very much about

8:09

their lives in Europe or their uh cultures so yes I would say culturally

8:16

uh we were Arabs uh F first and foremost and um Jewish Judaism was

8:25

second many people listen to this will will probably not know a world where there are large numbers of of Jews

8:32

living in Arab and Muslim countries but I suppose this was the norm prior to

8:39

1947 prior to World War II in fact where large numbers of Jews lived in Muslim

8:45

countries as part of that Society is that something which was a

8:52

norm for a lot you you mentioned you were in Jews were in Iraq before the Advent of Islam for two millennia and

8:59

you site the B Babylonian exile which is a very very important um period in

9:05

history for Jews so my question I suppose is the

9:12

integration where you say it was very integrated those that seems to be

9:19

something far off whereas is it as far off and as and as um I suppose more of

9:28

an ideal now than it actually was back in those days um my Memoirs have um excited a lot

9:40

of interest in the Arab world and the reason for that is that any Arabs or

9:47

Muslims who were born after 1948 after Israel was established would

9:54

have no idea of this reality that I describe in the book that all they know

10:02

is Israel and the Palestinians the conflict yes um and um they wouldn't

10:09

know that once upon a time the Middle East the landscape was totally different

10:16

um and um uh that's partly the reason

10:22

that I wrote my book and that is to recapture and reanimate a distinct

10:29

Jewish civilization of the near East which was blown away in the 20th century

10:37

by the cold wings of nationalism um so uh Iraq was a very

10:44

good example of this kind of pluralism that I'm talking about in Iraq there are

10:50

many minorities many minorities uh there were uh Christians

10:57

there were calines the Catholics yes uh there were Tans there were

11:04

yazidis um and uh there was a long tradition of religious tolerance of Let

11:11

Live and Let Live by the different minorities so we as Jews we didn't stand

11:17

out we were one minority among many Iraq did not have a Jewish Problem in

11:24

inverted commas Europe had a Jewish Problem in Europe the Jews were the

11:30

other mhm um in Iraq the Jews were not the other there were one minority the

11:36

Jews did not live in ghettos um uh so um this was a very

11:45

pluralistic World which was with a distant distinct culture political

11:51

culture which came down from the Ottoman Empire the Ottoman Empire seems um

11:58

centuries away yes uh but um uh and it doesn't have a good reputation but it

12:05

has its saving Graces and although it was a Muslim empire it was multi-ethnic

12:12

and multilingual and it afforded a large uh measure of civil and religious uh

12:20

rights to all the minorities and the Jews thrived under the Ottoman Empire

12:26

and the logic of the Ottoman Empire was pluralism um and

12:33

um uh after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire when the European the colonial

12:40

Powers uh reshaped the Middle East uh in

12:45

their own image nationalism was the guiding principle so under the Ottoman

12:52

Empire the logic was pluralism MH um whereas um in the post World War I

13:02

landscape uh nationalism was a dominant force and nationalism is a very divisive

13:07

Force it's Us and Them Jews and Arabs Jews and Muslims Israelis and uh

13:14

Palestinians yes um so the um political

13:20

culture of the Ottoman Empire the economical culture suited the region

13:28

much better uh than the Nationalist framework of uh separate nation states

13:35

with borders between them and a never ending conflict so an Algerian Berber

13:44

under the Ottoman Empire could go all the way to Istanbul without a passport

13:49

it was all open uh whereas um

13:56

the PC settlement the that was imposed on the region by the Victorious powers

14:03

in the first world war Britain uh and France um this didn't suit the region

14:12

and its culture um and I call it the post-ottoman

14:17

syndrome and the key feature of the post otoman syndrome is lack of

14:23

legitimacy the rulers were handpicked by the colonial powers yes um uh they were

14:31

not legitimate they were not elected the political systems were uh they were

14:38

foreign um they were not democracy there was no peaceful means of bringing about

14:45

political uh change and the borders of the new Middle East were illegitimate

14:51

because there were artificial borders cutting across live communities this is

14:57

what I call the Post otoman syndrome which has produced NeverEnding strife

15:03

and conflict and bloodshed um uh right until today so you describe a a a bygone

15:12

world now that that that world has gone um for you obviously it's quite sad that's gone U for many they'll have a

15:20

different view on that um but let's go back to yourself so I suppose in that atmosphere

15:29

let's say around the 1930s the 1940s more and more I suppose the space

15:35

would have been closing in on Arab Jews or Iraqi Jews in your

15:41

case tell us about how your family or your parents felt in terms of their

15:48

experiences which led to them having to I suppose flee Iraq into what maybe they

15:54

viewed it as a homecoming but in your book you very clearly said say that for

16:00

many of the elders in your community in Iraq they viewed Israel as a farway

16:06

country of which we knew little

16:12

um in the 1930s things in Iraq began to change

16:19

especially after the Nazi party came to power in Germany in

16:25

1933 and then there was um uh uh growing Nazi propaganda in

16:36

Iraq um and um part of that propaganda was anti-semitic yes but I'd like to

16:44

emphasize that anti-Semitism is not an Arab or a Muslim

16:51

phenomenon it didn't grow in the Middle East uh anti-Semitism is a European

16:57

malady from Europe it was transported to the Middle East and anti-Semitism in Europe

17:04

has it its roots in the Middle Ages particularly the church it's the Christian Church which was a generator

17:12

of anti-Semitism absolutely yes um uh and um it's interesting to note that in

17:20

the 30s and 40s um when anti-Semitism was spreading

17:25

in the Arab world mhm uh there was no Arabic literature which is anti-Semitic

17:31

so anti-semitic literature had to be translated from European languages into

17:37

Arabic for example Hitler's mine uh mine Camp uh so things began to change for

17:46

the Jews in Iraq the environment became more hostile um and um uh we were caught

17:55

between two forces um uh Arab

18:02

nationalism uh and one manifestation of that was to reject the Jews as Outsiders

18:09

as aliens um and uh the eal party represented their Trend in Iraq and it

18:17

called for the expulsion of the Jews and the confiscation of the

18:22

property um and on the other hand there was the Zionist movement which had

18:27

embarked by this time on the systematic takeover of Palestine with British

18:34

support going starting with the bord Declaration of 1917 the Zionist movement

18:40

was taking over Palestine and um uh ex

18:46

and uh and pushing out some of the Palestinians uh so there was a clash

18:53

between two two national movements which affected the position of Jews

18:58

uh in the Arab world things came to a head in 1948 when the state of Israel was

19:06

established uh and there was the first Arab Israeli War U

19:13

Zionism uh was an important factor here in understanding what happened because

19:19

Zionism gave the Jews for the first time in two Millennia a territorial Dimension

19:26

yes there was now a Jewish State nearby so for any right-wing Arab nationalist

19:34

for any member of the eal party it became easier to say to Jews you don't

19:40

belong here you're foreigners you're Outsiders you're not our friends go and

19:45

join your brothers and also your brothers in Palestine are the ones who are expelling our brothers the

19:52

Palestinians yes um so um uh

19:58

the 1948 war was a turning point in the history of the Jews uh in the region and

20:07

the Jewish community in Iraq which had been a very constructive element in

20:13

Iraqi Society was viewed increasingly as a fifth column MH um and uh the Iraqi

20:23

Army fought in Palestine when the war was over all the neighboring Arab states

20:30

signed Army disagreements with Israel but the Iraqi Army withdrew without

20:35

signing an army disagreement so officially Iraq is still at war with

20:43

Israel uh today and after the war there was persecution of the Jews at the

20:50

official level there was popular hostility towards the Jews after the war

20:55

is that because they they held them to be responsible for or what was taking place in Palestine or is it because of a

21:02

a more deep-seated host hostility as some would argue particularly those from a Zionist

21:08

persuasion uh I think that um the main

21:14

reason was official hostility towards the Jews because the Iraqi government

21:22

was a failure uh it failed militarily on the battlefield in Palestine so was The

21:29

Shame of the Arab defeat but more importantly uh it was not a good

21:36

government which had failed domestically it failed its people and therefore the

21:41

Jews were picked on as as a convenient scapegoat okay and the Jews and the

21:47

zanis could be blamed for the Arab defea in Palestine and for the failures of uh

21:55

the Iraqi government so the Iraqi government cynically exploited

22:00

anti-jewish settlement uh sentiment um in order to prop up its own position and

22:08

it actually started persecution at the official level so Jewish civil servants

22:14

were fired from the government uh Jewish Merchants had more and more restrictions

22:20

placed on their activities and there were quotas imposed on Jewish students

22:27

uh at at universities and I think that was the

22:32

main reason for the eventual uh Exodus of the Jews from Iraq which leads me on

22:39

to my next Point um you say in your book that when the Iraqi Jews arrived in

22:45

Israel their experience fell short of the Zionist myth at the airport many

22:52

were sprayed with DDT pesticides to disinfect them as if they were animals

22:59

how did that how did Iraqi Jews feel coming to somewhere where it was meant

23:07

to be the Homeland for the Jews yet when they arrive

23:12

they're treated as though they were animals in your words um or perhaps in

23:17

their words maybe that's that's been passed on to you and then taken to squalled and unsanitary Transit camps

23:25

surrounded by barbwire and and guarded by policemen that must have been quite a

23:32

harrowing experience uh it was a traumatic

23:38

experience um and on a colossal

23:44

scale because of the number of Jews involved uh in

23:52

1950 when The Exodus began there were 135,000 Jews in

23:59

Iraq by the end of 1952 there were something like 10,000

24:05

Jews only left MH and they were not badly treated uh and

24:13

approximately 125,000 Iraqi Jews ended up in Israel

24:19

can I just interject there because there's one particular fact which we've not covered and which you mentioned that

24:26

Baghdad where most Iraqi Jews lived half of Baghdad was Jewish in some respects

24:33

it was a Jewish City yeah I just wanted to make that point because it's important that viewers realize how

24:40

deeply embedded Jews were in Arab uh Society uh during the first world war um

24:50

uh the Jews constituted a third of the population of Iraq wow and Baghdad was

24:57

sometimes um regarded and as a as a Jewish

25:03

city um and um uh the Jewish holidays and the the Sabbath and the Jewish uh

25:11

High holidays um were um respected by the rest of the

25:20

population uh and uh Banks would close and businesses would close and there was

25:27

nothing unusual about that because um

25:33

coexistence was the norm was the norm um it it was uh uh the norm um but

25:42

going back to the Exodus of the Jews uh from

25:47

Iraq uh it wasn't a handful of Jews who

25:53

left Iraq it was the whole community and the experience of individuals on arrival

26:00

in Israel varied but for the community as a whole the experience was traumatic

26:06

it's like a tree being pulled out by the roots he was a really successful

26:13

distinguished the most ancient Jewish community in the near East and suddenly

26:19

it's completely erased almost without Trace wow and for those who were

26:25

involved in this transition uh it was very

26:31

painful uh I have a distant relative called bah Moshe he was a writer and he

26:40

arrived in Israel in Israel he never found his place he wrote 10 books all in

26:46

Arabic and one of them uh was called

26:51

alq the departure or The Exodus from Iraq and there he says we we left Iraq

26:59

as Jews and we arrived in um Israel as Iraqis oh uh so uh the Jews who arrived

27:10

in Israel were not welcome with open

27:15

arms um but they um

27:20

um and their experience on arrival was um very harrowing as you put it uh and

27:30

there was transport arranged by Israel from Iraq to carry them and they could

27:39

only take one suitcase and 50 dins uh and when they arrived they

27:47

arrived they were penniless and they didn't have a passport they couldn't go

27:52

to any other country only to to Israel because they had a one way visa to to

27:59

leave uh Iraq and on arrival in the promised land um they were treat with

28:06

sprayed with uh DT DDT so you can just imagine how painful uh that was and how

28:14

the right away it shattered any illusions that they might have had and

28:20

from the airport they were taken to Transit camps that were where conditions were very very difficult um uh there

28:28

wasn't proper housing there were Shacks there were tents there were um uh uh uh

28:35

very temporary um uh buildings um the food was inadequate yeah and toally

28:43

foreign very totally foreign to them everything was foreign the managers of

28:50

the marot of the transit camps where all European Jews ashkanazi Jews who knew

28:58

nothing about the background of these people their achievements their status

29:03

in their own societies uh and they thought they should be grateful for anything that is

29:10

done for them instead of instead of uh

29:15

complaining um so uh it was a very very difficult period and then gradually um

29:25

uh the Jews started leaving the marot and making their own way in Israeli Society but from the beginning they look

29:33

down upon yeah because they were um Oriental Jews they were uh Arab Jews and

29:42

um the dominant ethos in the country was very Ashkenazi so they were not accepted

29:48

as equals but regarded as rather primitive and and backward well just on

29:54

that point I think it's really apt to quote you directly from the book you say

29:59

we were Jews from an Arab country that was still officially at war with Israel

30:05

European Jews look down on us as socially and culturally inferior they

30:12

despise the Arabic language I was an Iraqi boy in a Land of Europeans now you

30:18

go further on in your book and you describe your childhood growing up in in

30:24

Israel and how your father still kept hold of his arabness whereas at times

30:33

when you write that when you were playing with your friends in Israel you

30:39

were somewhat embarrassed because you had an Arab far or an Arab cultural

30:45

culturally Arab uh father and you were being brought up in this new identity an

30:52

Israeli identity which was obviously heavily influenced by Europeans that must have been very conflicting for you

30:59

as a young boy uh tell us about that this is the opening scene in my Memoirs

31:06

that I'm a boy about 10 years old playing in the street with my friends we

31:12

were wearing shorts and sandals and Along Comes My father and he wears a

31:19

three-piece suit with a tie yes he looks completely foreign and alien and he

31:26

comes up to me and he starts speaking to me in Arabic and I remember still how

31:32

acutely embarrassed I was and how I went read in the face and replied in

31:38

monosyllables and I wanted to say to him Dad it's okay to speak Arabic at home

31:44

but in front of my friends I would rather you spoke to me in Hebrew um but he couldn't speak

31:52

Hebrew um uh and um uh it's only later

31:58

that I understood I I I immediately uh felt the pain in myself

32:04

but I didn't TR realize how painful this the experience was for my father Yes and

32:12

this is the result of being uprooted from our country ending in a different

32:19

country uh with a different language at which neither my father nor I felt

32:26

really at home did that put a strain on your relationship further on as you were

32:31

growing up in in in in now Israel as an Israel Jew you you mentioned to me when

32:38

we were speaking before that um uh people's culture was completely wiped

32:44

away you had to conform to feel you fitted into the new Society at home what

32:50

was it like with your mother and father uh were you an Arab at home and and and an Israeli outside of home

32:58

oh uh to some extent uh this was so mhm uh and my

33:06

sisters and I went to school and we learned Hebrew very quickly so we will

33:11

speak Hebrew between ourselves at home my parents spoke Arabic and they spoke

33:18

uh in Arabic to us but we would reply uh in um in Hebrew do you still know that

33:26

Arabic to being quite a unique dialect of Arabic it was a distinct Iraqi Jewish

33:33

uh dialect and that is the dialect that we spoke at home wow and and okay so

33:41

tell us Professor you're you're now in in school and and you write again you

33:46

talk about in your book how there was a systematic process at work to as you

33:52

viewed it delegitimize your heritage and erase the cult cultural roots your

33:57

cultural Roots um tell us about what school and and college and university

34:05

which some of our viewers who probably be going through that right now what was it like for you as now an

34:13

Israel um perhaps stripped of your Arab identity maybe at home you you are still

34:19

keeping those cultures alive but essentially your friends would be Israeli perhaps mainly European what was

34:26

that process like like your education um

34:32

the dominant character the dominant factor in my um

34:41

period in Israeli Society was a sense of

34:46

inferiority I carried a huge chip on my shoulder because I was an Iraqi boy okay

34:52

and I felt inferior uh and I didn't feel equal to the the other boys and girls in

34:58

the class who were European who were Ashkenazi Jews I felt this sense of fear

35:05

inferiority very acutely and it was debilitating and at school I didn't do

35:11

at all well I never engage okay uh and I perform very uh poorly and I was cut off

35:18

I was a Daydreamer um and uh that really held me back and uh and impeded my my

35:27

development uh at uh at school uh but looking back I understand

35:36

better the processes at work here uh because identity is not a fixed

35:44

thing identity is very fluid and identity isn't something that we

35:51

entirely choose or shape for ourselves Society to large extent shapes our

35:59

identity for us and Society isn't always benign MH uh in this case it was

36:07

Ashkenazi zanis society which had its own norms and its own values which were

36:14

imposed on me uh so my Arab identity was

36:20

erased Arabic was really looked down upon as a primitive language and the

36:26

language uh of the enemy MH um um my Arab culture

36:32

was treated with contempt um uh and a new identity was

36:40

imposed on me that that of a new Jew uh or rather a new Israeli yes

36:48

self-confidence strong proud Israeli and I never fully I never felt fully

36:55

comfortable uh with this new identity so there was a sort of conflicting elements

37:03

in in me internal turmoil um but I never felt that I had

37:12

any great talents or any great promise which were ignored by the society I

37:18

accepted the evaluation that was prevalent that I was of an inferior uh

37:25

breed um and at school uh we were indoctrinated with

37:32

Zionist ideals um and um we were

37:38

taught uh Jewish history but only the history of the Jews in Europe in Europe

37:45

yeah we I we weren't taught anything about the history of the many Jews

37:51

hundreds of thousands of Jews in the in the uh Middle East in this history to

37:59

use a phrase used uh from to to borrow a phrase from the American Jewish

38:05

historian Salo Baron this history was the

38:11

lacrimoso the lacrimas version of Jewish history is a history of the Jews in

38:17

Europe uh which is um hatred um

38:22

discrimination violence bloodshed persec tion culminating in the

38:28

Holocaust MH um and uh it's debatable whe this is

38:35

a true picture of European Jewish history but it most emphatically is not

38:40

true of our history yes but I didn't know that as a boy when I became a

38:46

historian I realized that and when I wrote my Memoirs I asserted my right to

38:54

uh write our own history MH as I experienced it and as I understand it

39:01

rather than to accept the conventional Israeli Zionist version of the Jews in

39:07

the um uh uh Arab world so that's an important contribution that I hope to

39:14

make in in my book um to say that the

39:20

eurocentric focus of Israeli history and zanis history doesn't really have apply

39:26

to us we have a separate history that we can be proud of and I am now proud of my

39:33

um uh Arab um uh

39:38

Heritage you describe yourself as an Arab Jew and you as you said you feel

39:44

very proud of that and I'll come on to that term perhaps later on in our conversation especially in in light of

39:51

recent uh events taking place which we will discuss as well but I want to talk about you then left Israel and you came

39:59

to the UK you ostensibly came to study and to and you made your life here you

40:04

met you had a family you you talk about your first girlfriend um how was it for

40:10

you as uh somebody who's and and that's what the three worlds title is about

40:16

your your your Arabic Heritage your Jewish Israel Heritage and then come

40:22

into the UK and you are a British national as well tell us about

40:28

that um I was 15 years old um I was

40:33

about to be thrown out of high school because of low grades and because I

40:39

failed English outright well nobody would believe that you know but please car it is true and English is my third

40:47

language my first language was Arabic my second language is Hebrew and my third

40:52

language um is uh English and and English is a very difficult language and

40:58

I learned it the hard way it was a struggle but I went to school here for

41:05

uh 3 years I lived with a Headmaster it wasn't a bundle of fun but

41:12

that was the turning point for me I focused on my studies my family had made

41:18

a sacrifice in sending me to study in England it was a privilege and I had to

41:25

justify that Sacrifice by doing well well at school so I um did well at

41:32

school I got four a levels and I got a place at Cambridge to read history but

41:40

uh I didn't go straight to Cambridge from school I went back to Israel when I was 18 and I did two years military

41:48

service I first I served in the IDF MH um and um I served loyally and proudly

41:57

in the IDF because I had been subjected to indoctrination which started at school

42:03

and continued uh in the Army uh and I uh was when I was inducted

42:12

into the Israeli Army uh I accepted that we were a small peace

42:21

loving country a democratic liberal country surround Ed by our

42:27

predecessor Predators who wanted to throw us into the sea and we had no

42:34

choice but to stand up uh and fight so that was my view uh at at the

42:41

time uh and um when The Six Day War

42:46

broke out when the crisis broke out in May

42:52

1967 I was a first year history student at Cambridge and I went down to the

42:59

Israeli Embassy in London and I gave my details and I said I wanted to go back

43:05

and serve in the war that we all knew was coming yes and they took my details

43:11

the war was over in six days and I uh never heard from them and I never did

43:19

any reserve duty uh so I've stayed in England uh ever since uh and it's only

43:28

after I had left Israel that um I got over my

43:35

inferiority of being um uh an an Iraqi

43:42

boy just go back to your family then tell us I mean you've brought us quite

43:48

close to contemp contemporary events which people will kind of start making

43:53

links to certainly 1967 then the the crisis in 73 and then the in and

43:58

everything else we've seen since the 1980s tell us about your family though

44:04

back in Israel you're obviously in the UK you're studying you've got a place at Cambridge how did your father and mother

44:10

feel there must have been terribly proud of you seeing despite all the disadvantages

44:16

they probably felt having lost all of their material wealth in Iraq having to

44:21

go as they saw into Exile into a foreign country they must have thought well actually here's our child now having a chance to

44:29

make it into the world

44:35

um my father and my mother were an Odd

44:40

Couple uh uh my father was a lot older than my mother yes uh and it was a force

44:47

marriage uh she was a school girl of 17 and he was a very wealthy Bachelor who

44:54

was 42 years so MH um uh and they got married and they had a pretty happy

45:02

marriage for my mother there compensations in marrying such a rich man of course living in a palacial house

45:10

with a lot of servants and a a very luxurious uh lifestyle she never worked

45:17

she had servants we had nannies uh and all this world collapsed

45:23

very suddenly in 1950 and we ended up in Israel my father has lost most of his

45:31

wealth and my mother who was in her late 20s uh very intelligent very resourceful

45:39

my father was 50 years old he couldn't speak Hebrew um he tried some business

45:45

ventures that failed and he was unemployed and when the money ran out my

45:51

mother had to go out to work she worked as a tel eist in the Town Hall in

45:57

Ramadan and she became the bread winner we lived in a small flat we were not at

46:04

all well off and um this created tensions between my parents which

46:11

eventually led to uh their divorce so the move from Baghdad to Ramadan uh

46:18

didn't um do well for U my family yeah again another very sad

46:26

moment and and you say you talk about that as well in your book and I I wanted to M give you the opportunity to say

46:33

that because sometimes when it comes to certainly these issues uh family breakups it it can be very uh very

46:41

sensitive but you put it in a very delicate manner um in terms

46:47

of internationally what's going on for example um 1967 you you sign up to be an

46:55

IDF volunteer or or in the Army in some respects 6 days and the wars finished

47:01

1973 there's another crisis that's taking place but you're obviously living your life in the UK your fam's obviously

47:08

now thousands of miles away in in Israel growing uh obviously having their own

47:14

experiences when you had these crises 67 you say very clearly you wanted to go back and defend Israel 73 it was more of

47:22

a a crisis and you know the there was a peace treaty towards the end of the 70s

47:28

did you then have hope that actually things will be different now you know Egypt a huge massive

47:35

contributor to Arab culture has the largest population certainly at that time as well that's where the heart of

47:42

the Arab world was now having a peace treaty with Israel and perhaps things might be looking up for the Middle

47:50

East uh the June 1967 war was a turning point in the

47:57

history of the region and it was a turning point in my personal uh history

48:03

because in the mid 1960s I sa served proudly in the IDF

48:11

because in my time the IDF was true to its name it was the Israel Defense

48:18

Forces but after the June 67 War Israel

48:25

captured Ed the Golan Heights the West Bank the Sinai Peninsula it traveled its

48:32

uh territory yes and it became a colonial power and my Army the Army I

48:39

knew became the brutal police force of a

48:44

brutal colonial power and Israel embarked on a new phase

48:52

as a settler colonial state by building illegal civilian

48:58

settlements um in the West Bank and Gaza and the Golan Heights was there a

49:04

fundamental change in in who was or the group of people or maybe the

49:09

intelligencia in Israel to consciously make that decision as you would put it

49:15

to move from being a country with a lot of enemies but having legitimacy

49:20

nonetheless to a country which is now occupying 3 million Palestinian which

49:25

you you mention in your book I mean I'd like to quote some of it right now actually the idea of a two-state peace

49:33

settlement based on partitioning Palestine being dead which is more your contemporary View and the settlement

49:39

Enterprise which over the past 50 years has planted more than half a million Jews some of their mesic Fanatics in the

49:45

midst of 3 million strong Palestinian Arab population of the West

49:51

Bank is did you sense that shift although you were in London but did did you sense that shift that the founding

49:58

ideals are now completely changing uh I did

50:03

uh feel and notice the shift um from the

50:10

late 60s onwards uh and the clearest

50:16

manifestation of the shift was the building of Civilian settlements uh on

50:21

the West Bank in Gaza MH uh the settlements are

50:27

illegal and the settlements are the main obstacle to peace MH uh and that's

50:34

because Israel became overtly a colonial power uh that's when my disenchantment

50:42

with Israel began the uh uh Egyptian Israeli peace

50:49

treaty of 1979 following anas Sadat's visit to

50:54

Jerusalem yes um was a very hopeful moment but it wasn't the beginning of

51:01

reconciliation between Israel and the rest of the world um it was an attempt by Israel to

51:08

disengage Egypt the most important and the most powerful Arab country from the

51:16

circle of hostile States uh um and it wasn't followed by

51:23

an attempt at peace with the Palestinians and indeed there was no progress towards peace uh with the

51:30

Palestinians so I realize that despite this peace first peace um agreement M

51:39

the core of the problem was a Palestinian issue in essence the Arab

51:45

Israeli conflict is a clash between two national movements Jewish nationalism

51:50

and Arab nationalism uh so the Palestinian issue was always the core and the Heart of the

51:57

conflict and the region can have no peace and

52:02

security um unless the Palestinian problem is resolved so another point of

52:10

optimism was when the Oslo Accord was signed between the PLO and Israel in

52:17

1993 and this was a historic moment for all the limitations of the Osler cord it

52:23

was the first pie agreement between the two principal parties to the conflict so

52:30

I was really hopeful I was euphoric I thought this is the real deal okay and

52:36

that a Palestinian state is bound to emerge at the end of the process there

52:43

was going to be a transition period of 5 years and I was certain uh I was

52:49

confident that the Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories would be

52:55

gradual control but irreversible I was wrong the process was reversed uh it hak

53:03

Rin was um assassinated by Jewish fanatic the leud came back to power

53:10

under Benjamin Netanyahu this was in 1996 and Netanyahu had never concealed

53:18

his hostility to the Osler Accord and he spent his F ter first term in office

53:24

from 19 96 to 1999 in a systematic and successful attempt to dismantle the O

53:32

the Oslo Accords and his life's Mission has been always and still is to prevent

53:40

the emergence of a Palestinian uh state in terms of you as a as a British

53:48

Israeli and your relationships with perhaps Zionist Jews in this

53:53

country did this this changing of your view of your perhaps links to Zionism

54:01

which now I mean I've got quotations now you're in a completely different place but that it would have been a gradual

54:07

movement I suppose did that put strains on your relationships with um uh

54:13

zionists uh supporting Jews perhaps here or in

54:20

Israel My Views about Israel and Zionism have changed they weren't always as

54:28

radical as they are now now I see very clearly when I look over the last

54:33

century that Zionism is a settler Colonial movement yes yes you said that

54:39

and Israel is still a settler Colonial movement and settler colonialism didn't

54:46

begin in 1967 it was a continuation o of that um uh process

54:56

um the Jewish intellect American intellectual n chsky once said that

55:03

settler colonialism is the most extreme and vicious form of imperialism and the

55:10

Palestinians have been at the receiving end of since 1917 of uh Europe of Zion settler

55:18

colonialism on the one hand and Western imperialism on the other hand first

55:25

during the British mandate and since 1948 with America uh so now I see very

55:33

clearly that Israel never wanted to be part of the

55:38

region MH and that is why Arabs were justified in seeing uh Israel as a

55:46

western Enclave in the uh in the Middle East and if we look at the war in in

55:55

Gaza which is Raging today uh it's presented by Israel as a

56:01

war between Israel and Hamas but I see it in broader historical

56:07

terms okay as a war between um Israel as

56:12

a settler colonial state uh backed clo tied closely to

56:18

American imperialism against not just Hamas but against the Palestinian people

56:25

Al together with the aim of preventing uh the emergence of a Palestinian

56:32

state would it be fair to say then your transition would have been

56:38

from and I say this very Loosely a Zionist to an

56:45

anti-zionist um uh yes but there was a way station on

56:53

the way absolutely I I was a Zionist uh until the time that I

56:59

finished my military service MH um then

57:04

as a young scholar um I realized that the

57:12

Zionist um movement had achieved its

57:17

principal aim which is an independent Jewish state in Palestine by

57:25

1967 so on the eve of the Six Day War there was a viable um Jewish state in

57:34

Palestine and for me this was mission accomplished and after the war I wanted

57:41

Israel to trade land for peace which is what the UN decreed that Israel will

57:47

give back the occupied territories and in return uh get peace from its Arab

57:54

Neighbors yes but Israel chose occupation over peace and Israel has

57:59

become addicted to uh occupation uh and Israel today is an

58:08

apartheid state there is no question about that uh Israel there was a report

58:16

by bet selem the Israeli human rights organization a couple of years ago uh

58:23

and all it previous reports were about Israeli human rights violations in the

58:29

occupied territories this time it said you can no longer distinguish between

58:34

the occupied territories in Israel proper it's one regime from The River To

58:40

The Sea and it's an ethnocentric regime it's a regime in which one ethnic group

58:48

dominates the other there is another word for this situation which is

58:53

apartheid so Israel is an aggressive aparti uh

59:00

State um and Israel is a Jewish Supremacy State Israel is officially a

59:09

racist State because the nation the Jewish nation state law of

59:15

July uh 2018 which is a basic law not an order piece of legislation but a basic law it

59:22

says that the Jewish people have a unique right to

59:28

self-determination in Israel which means that no one else has the same right and

59:35

the policy guidelines of the present government headed by Benjamin Netanyahu

59:43

which has some Jewish fascists in it and real extremists the policy guid say that

59:50

the Jewish people have an exclusive right to self-determination

59:55

with uh in the land of Israel and the land of Israel includes the West Bank uh

1:00:02

as well so that's that's why I'm an anti- Zionist because I believe in equal

1:00:09

rights and uh I would like a settlement of this conflict it can be a two-state

1:00:18

solution um with an independent Palestinian State that's what I always supported in the back

1:00:25

in the back in in the past but Israel has destroyed the two-state solution by

1:00:30

building settlements by annexing East Jerusalem by building the separation barrier on the West Bank so the

1:00:38

two-state solution no longer exists and I am an anti-zionist and my solution to

1:00:44

the conflict is one is the only Democratic solution it's

1:00:50

one um one state from the Jordan River to

1:00:56

the Mediterranean Sea with equal rights for all its citizens regardless of um

1:01:04

religion and ethnicity and the most important for thing for me is equality

1:01:11

that there are no different classes of um citizens with Jews having all the

1:01:17

rights and privileges um and Arabs having none or degrees of right um

1:01:25

equality is a uh essential part of democracy and I

1:01:32

would like equality and this is the best solution in order to achieve both

1:01:39

democracy and equality for everybody it's very interesting you say

1:01:44

that because I see your face light up I see I

1:01:50

see almost a longing to bring back that world that your parents lived

1:01:58

in I suppose it's probably a longing to get back to the Baghdad where in essence it was a Jewish

1:02:06

City you speak about so lovingly in your book as well and this solution whether

1:02:14

it's this solution or or the two-state solution some say even three

1:02:19

states whatever the solution is the fact that Jews and

1:02:25

Arabs and you are a Living testament to that lived together for

1:02:32

centuries as equals as brothers or as

1:02:37

compatriots demonstrates that what's going on in the Middle East right now with the Gaza war with the incredible

1:02:46

loss of life of Palestinians the horrific attacks that took place in

1:02:52

Israel and the conflict that's taking place within Israel as well for it to be

1:02:58

a solution that perhaps puts a bom on all of that is that me being too

1:03:05

idealistic or is that the only solution that you actually

1:03:10

see to take this whole conflict out of the histor out of history and out of the

1:03:18

picture of History once and for all uh you are quite right uh my vision for The

1:03:25

Future Has It roots in my experience in the past in Baghdad and I say this in

1:03:32

the book because the book only covers the period until I was finished school

1:03:38

at the age of 18 but then there is a long epilogue which traces the evolution

1:03:44

of my um views on Israel Palestine uh until the present ending

1:03:52

with my advocacy of one state solution today but that's all Anchored In my own

1:03:59

experience uh in Iraq because for my family and me um Muslim Jewish

1:04:06

coexistence was not a distant dream it was the everyday reality there was

1:04:13

nothing remarkable about it it's uh

1:04:19

nationalism and it's uh particularly Zionism that made Muslim Jewish

1:04:25

coexistence impossible uh that divided the region between Israelis and Palestinians

1:04:34

Israelis uh uh and Arabs but I think there is nothing inevitable or

1:04:40

pre-ordained um or inescapable about Muslim Jewish

1:04:49

antagonism uh the driver of our departure from Iraq

1:04:55

was not cultural or religious it was political it was nationalist

1:05:01

forces um and that is why uh I think

1:05:06

that we need to move Beyond nationalism Beyond Zionism uh towards a better

1:05:15

world uh and I've said before that I'm proud of my Arab Heritage I'm equally

1:05:22

proud of my Jewish heritage uh the main pillars of Judaism are truth

1:05:29

justice and peace and I look at the present government in Israel and I can't

1:05:34

detect any sign of these values um the essence of Judaism is

1:05:43

nonviolence and the present Israeli government is the most

1:05:48

xenophobic overtly racist aggressive um islamophobic obic

1:05:55

government in Israel's history and we can see the result of that the length to

1:06:02

which they go to carry out the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and in Gaza they've gone

1:06:09

beyond ethnic cleansing to perpetrate perpetrating

1:06:15

genocide um so uh I think from the to

1:06:21

move beyond the Dismal picture of what the Middle East looks like today and it's never been more dismal in my

1:06:29

experience um uh we need political imagination uh uh not empty formulas um

1:06:37

the two-state solution is just a form of words it's meaningless um we need political

1:06:44

imagination and my past and the fact that I lived in happily in an Arab uh

1:06:52

Society enables me to think um more imaginatively about the future uh for

1:06:59

our region Professor schlime I I'm very

1:07:05

moved by your words you come across as somebody who one can only describe as a

1:07:11

real humanitarian uh to sit with me and to to

1:07:17

talk about these experiences so vividly to bring this to

1:07:23

our audience about your life and how it shaped you as an individual is something that will

1:07:29

stay with me for a very long time thank you so much thank you very much it's

1:07:34

been a pleasure to talk to you folks uh that was professor aish

1:07:40

schlim and I must say it's an incredibly moving experience for me to sit with

1:07:48

somebody who has three Worlds the chapter title of his book and the three

1:07:54

wordss that he described in very digest format today with me is something that

1:08:00

you should all pick up read I'm pretty sure you can buy from any bookshops either

1:08:05

online uh if you wish that's all for my podcast today with Professor a islim thank you for

1:08:11

joining me and I will see you in the next one salamu

1:08:19

alaykum