Israel, Gaza and the Anatomy of Genocide
Francesca Albanese, the UN Special Rapporteur for Palestine, dissects Israel's humanitarian camouflage for genocide, she also talks about Palestinian children held in arbitrary detention, the International Criminal Court and the "Watermelon Revolution".
Transcript
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I often say no member state is innocent when it comes to Palestine well a big
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exception now for South Africa the rest is the same story Israel calls its
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targets human Shields or collateral damage Israel calls hospitals military
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bases Israel defines most of what constitutes
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civilian objects under international law as a military Target as a military Target either destroyable or in any case
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targetable and this is the genocidal logic but you cannot say that all the neighborhoods living around the Hamas
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combatant is human Shields this is nonsense this is nonsense and the the
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crazy thing you know is that I've seen serious lawyers serious legal Scholars her splitting this argument as as Israel
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was saying well but the attack was proportionate I've said over and over that the
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IC uh the legitimacy of the IC needs
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Palestine almost more than Palestine needs the ICC but you know what gives me
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hope in this uh Grim scenario in this Grim landscape our young Generations I
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mean I call them water melod Revolution because this is what they are to me I mean they have uh built a space of
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Consciousness and Awakening this is Musa kesi from the watermelon reports we have with us today
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Franchesca Alan she doesn't really need any introduction but for those of you who don't know she
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is the United Nations special raor for Palestine she has expertise in the area
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of public international law she holds degrees from the University of Pisa and the University of London and in addition
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to that she has co-authored the definitive text on legal rights for Palestinian refugees published by Oxford
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University press uh that has over 600 pages so she really does know what she's
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talking about and we're incredibly pleased to have her with today on the watermelon reports special rapporter
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Franchesca albanesi welcome thank you so much for having me so I'd like to start by understanding
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before we talk about what's been happening in Gaza recently by understanding what the reality is of the
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occupation of Palestinian territories for Palestinians and I'd like to actually turn it around and actually
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look at it from the Israeli perspective so we know that Israel was created as a
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safe haven for Jewish people who had suffered in the horrors of the Nazi
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Holocaust and in since 1950 there's been a law of return in Israel which has
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allowed any Jewish person anywhere in the world to claim Israeli citizenship and since 1967 we know that
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some of these uh new Israeli citizens have actually moved into Israeli
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settlements on the West Bank bank or into houses in Sheik J in East
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Jerusalem so if I am a Jewish person living in London or New York and you
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know I decide whatever I you know it's always raining in England um you know property prices are going up I want to
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live in the West Bank in a settlement what's wrong with that and
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what what can a Palestinian family do if I I decide to move onto their
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land uh this option is wrong because it's illegal and it's immoral it's illegal
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because article 49 of the Geneva Convention of the Fourth Geneva Convention
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prohibits basically the creation of urban settlement populated by citizens
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of the occupying power in the occupied territory This Is War this is a war crime a severe grave breach of the for
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Geneva Convention which also causes um individual liability for those
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Architects uh architect this system um so it cannot be done there is a right of
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self-determination of the Palestinian people who has been infringed upon for decades and continues to be so yes I
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understand your point on in 1947 49 the situation was very diff different for
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the Jewish people uh and they had nowhere else where they would feel safe
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I take this point although nothing prescribed that had to happen at the
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expense of the Palestinians meaning expelling uh hundreds of thousands of them and dispossessing them and making
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them Refugee for over seven seven decades but all the more today I mean the scenario you are talking about it's
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very likely uh of people wanting to move uh to the West Bank because it's more
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convenient again it's illegal and it's also immoral because it's happening at the expense of other people's right to
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live and exist on on that land you're you're obviously an an expert in the
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area of international law so that's your legal opinion on on on what's allowed
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under international law in terms of fast forwarding really to October the 7th
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October the 7th was a horrific day I think we can all agree but it's important to understand
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it in the context of palestine's occupation because the occupation of Palestine has legal effects under
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international law what I'm trying to understand is what happened October 7th the actions
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of Hamas were they war crimes were they uh an act of legitimate resistance to
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occupation which we know that the United Charters allows I mean what were they
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illegally allowed what were they legally allowed to do and does Israel have a right to defend itself against these
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sort of actions now first of all let me push back on what you concluded before I mean
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it's not my opinion the right of self-determination is an inalienable right of the Palestinian people and what
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the I just said has been recognized recognized by the UN Security Council
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and the UN General Assembly and international court of justice so the the occupation has no right to crush the
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right of self-determination of the Palestinian people and this is the law and it's not an opinion now going back
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to the 7th of October your second question there is no no possibility in
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my view to uh call The Killing to define the killing of civilians the
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brutalization of civilians and uh the targeting of civilians as legitimate
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resistance resistance is legitimate but it has limits and it cannot turn into
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violence or acts of Terror against the civilian population whatever the
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qualification in the eye of the perpetrator is whether the Israelis have or not the right to be they are
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civilians unless they are soldiers in active uh I mean in Duty and so in
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active uh combat and this applies I mean it's important to to stick to this rigor
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of international law because this is a way to protect both Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians so I have the
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same the same approach when I say uh
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also Hamas Fighters whomever they are can only be targeted while in combat so
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they cannot be assumed you cannot presume that someone is a is a Hamas affiliate and therefore deserves to die
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which is what's happening in in the Gaza Strip so yes I mean there is no question
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that Israel had the right to protect itself its territory and its citizens on the 7th of October so repel the attack
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and arrest whomever was on the territory um committing crimes at the same time um
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what was necessary is to have um investigations and prosecutions which is
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not what has happened what has happened has been uh an assault a military assault of unprecedented violence which
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cannot be justified as self-defense I understand that the hostages had to be liberated but how uh seven months after
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this violence how has the life of the hostages uh been made safer but is
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assault in fact rumors are that a number of them have died out of deprivation
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starvation and the conditions of the of the assault so the measures Allowed by
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international law to Israel would have been of another nature I think very few people will be
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able to argue with that just going into a little bit more detail about what's happening with the
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hostages so Israel and its allies seem to have drawn a sort of moral equivalence between the hostages and the
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devastation happening in Gaza in the sense that you know when when uh
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opponents of of what's happening in Gaza at the moment have have said well you know 15,000 children have been killed
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the response is well you have to you have to free the hostages otherwise we'll just keep going and just keep
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causing Devastation in Gazza this is just a simple yes and no question to start with do you accept that Hamas has
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committed war crimes by taking Israeli hostages yes okay if not yes yes yeah that's okay
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so that's a clear unequivocal yes so talking about hostages what what
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do you say about the Palestinian hostages so so what I mean by that is
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that you know Amnesty International Human Rights Watch have documented for a
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number of years about children being kidnapped by Israeli forces uh held in
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detention sometimes signing confessions in Hebrew uh with their families not being informed sometimes not having
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legal counsel how do you characterize that and and in addition you know there have been
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stories since this conflict began about healthcare workers in in Gaza being
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kidnapped by the Israeli forces what what is the view of international law of of these
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actions most Palestinian uh most Palestinians detained by Israel are
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detained are charity and this is something that I uh put a a significant
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effort on um since the beginning of the of my mandate uh just for the audience
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who's listening to us and might not be familiar with my work but my second report was about arbitrary deprivation
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of Liberty where I was looking at the conditions I mean how come almost a million Palestinians those before the
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sth of October had been arrested and detained many of them children tens of
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thousands of children are arrested in less than a decade how come and uh and
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I've explained how the system is made to confine the Palestinians physically
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psychologically uh professionally um in the space that is left to them and then
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the privation of Liberty becomes a condition of life so I'm fully familiar with this with this file and of course
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for the for for the liberation of the Palestinians arbitrarily detained for
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for almost two years now so I'm absolutely uh on on the side of the
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argument you are making the fact that they are not qualified um as hostages is
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because of technicalities because Israel being the occupying power carries out
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has the power to carry out arrest and detention thing that Hamas in the in in
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Israel or elsewhere doesn't have I mean in Israel because in in Hamas in sorry
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in Gaz it has this this power uh but again this is a this is just terminology
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because the facto these people are arbitrarily depr deprived of their
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freedom and these consider this conduct which is systematic and
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widespread um of Israel can uh can also amount to a crime against humanity and
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this was before the 7th of October of course there are the situation has worsened as aggravated itself after
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after the 7th of October so I just want to be clear on
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what you're saying here are you saying when you talk about arbitrary detention are you saying that Israeli forces can
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take a Palestinian child and put them in jail and there is no judicial process
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there's to see whether that child is guilty of any crime this is what happens I mean you can be arrested and detained
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without judgment without trial without charge there are thousands of Palestinians detained arbitrarily this
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is what I mean there is no system and also if you think that the Palestinians
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have to go through military courts there is no judicial system that is not military under Israeli occupation for
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the Palestinians well if you are from Gaza then it's another category that has been created unlawful combatants which
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is nonsense but the Palestinians in the West Bank including children are held
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responsible for were breach of military orders written by soldiers enforced by
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soldiers um uh reviewed by soldiers in military courts and you can be sent to
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jail technically forever as a as a Palestinian I'm so sorry to interrupt
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you special rorer I'm still a little bit dismayed by but by this so are you so
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for instance the UK foreign secretary recently has been tweeting quite a lot about the israeli's hostages and of
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course you know their rights need to be up held but this has been going on for years what has the International
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Community done about this about the problem is of Israeli forces keeping
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Palestinian children in jail without a judicial process M I can tell you I'm as shocked
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and uh and revolted as you and many others with us because everyone knows
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what is the system that Palestinians have been subjected to for decades in
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200 13 UNICEF uh issued a report that was discussing all what we are seeing
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only through the prism of children and nothing has been done no one has been
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there to effectively protect the Palestinians for decades so I'm not justifying the forms of um of um
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reaction that the Palestinians have but they have been left on their own with
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the frustration and the sense of Despair mounting with the illegality of after illegality being condoned not just by
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the United States and the west but frankly everyone I often say no member state is innocent when it comes to
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Palestine well a big exception now for for South Africa the rest is the same
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story all right well that's a a very Bleak picture you've
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painted just talking a little bit more about the International Community so the
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UN Security Council has in the last few weeks passed a resolution for the first time which has decoupled Israel's Siege
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and Devastation of Gaz from the hostage question and has demanded that Israel
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stop what it's doing in Gaza and we know that you've mentioned South Africa the icj is considering allegations of
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genocide against Israel but laws I mean you're a lawyer you know that laws are
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not self- operative they need a mechanism for enforcement so so what are the mechanism for enforcing United
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Nations security Council resolutions and for instance let's say the icj says genocide is happening what happens
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next look there are a few things that are 100% clear and sure the UN Security
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Council resolutions are binding the icj um decisions are binding and so the
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preliminary measures that have been ordered to Israel in order not to uh
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commit Acts that could amount to genocide the moment the International
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Community um evades its responsibility the moment each member State because you
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know the genocide convention creates obligation for each member state to prevent and and um and punish uh the
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crime of genocide so to investigate and not to commit any act that could be seen
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as complicity uh with with genocide everyone is responsible so potenti
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there are legal proceedings that can be initiated in those states that have
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partaken in the commission of genocide for example by selling arms uh by uh
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creating that political shelter that makes any action to enforce legality
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impenetrable uh not enforceable and you're right it's it's true international law is as strong as the
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will of States uh to respect it and to enfor force it but as I often say the
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law without politics is ineffective but the politics that accept to run against
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the law they risk to be criminal and this is what we are facing today and it's the full erosion of the system
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which is there to protect all of us it's either Universal or or it won't
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work yeah I can see what you're saying and I understand as as as somebody who works as United Nations special raor and
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as somebody who obviously works in the legal field you believe in the law but I
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I really do Wonder honestly do you think that there ever has been an international rules-based order or do
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you think that essentially the world is being run in the geopolitical interests of of the great powers of the world but
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you know Musa it feels very weird to be and not against you of course to be
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taken as an idealist for basing stating the law but would you tell a lawyer at the national level oh but you know do
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you really believe in the law of course I believe in the law because this is the the the outome the outcome of a of a
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social contract of an agreement the fact the fact as I said that there continues
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to be lack of compliance is on at the same time both a problem and a symptom
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of a problem there is an arrogance a ubis among certain countries that they
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can run the the international system as they want they have even coined the new
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expression rules-based order whose rules what rules this is not the system the
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system that was born out of the ashes of the second world war was supposed to work in a given way and they are
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dismantling it they are dismembering it peace after peace so I'm there as a
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Cassandra saying look this is going to happen this is the only thing that has prevented us from from really falling
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apart as International SU society and this is what protects us from brutal
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force but it works only if everyone respects it and surely it doesn't
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impunity doesn't become system systemic and widespread and we are already there I'm I'm cognizant but again it's not my
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fault okay so let's move on now and let's talk about your document the
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anatomy of genocide it's a a very evocative and controversial title I a
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doctor you're a lawyer so um let's let's dissect this this
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document you say something very interesting near the beginning of this document on page
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three you say quote genocidal intent and practices are integral to the ideology
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and processes of settler colonialism as the experience of Native Americans in the United States first
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nations in Australia or Herrero in Namibia illustrates unquote
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so my question is if if you think genocide is integral to set settler
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colonialism and Israel is at its heart a settler Colonial project from the start
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from 1948 are you saying that Israel is intrinsically
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genocidal I don't think that you can have a yes and no question on that because the the quote you gave me you
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gave you shared it's taken from an historical section where I say exactly
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what you said you quoted me correctly but in it also say that genocide is a
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process and it's not an act so genocidal as genocide as it was conceived by The
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Scholar the Jewish scholar who coined that term uh Rafa lamin genocide is the
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destruction of a people and it's not just the physical Act of Killing is the
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destruction of a society uh its political relations its economic reality
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um its its institutions and and this happens gradually so in in that sense any
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settler Colonial regime has a dormant Gene of extreme violence that can
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unleash against the colonized population when the settler group feels threatened
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and this is the history of of settler colonialism and colonialism in general
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so going back to this yes I realized while writing this report and and
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studying genocide literature that this was expected that we could have understood where it was heading but of
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course there is also s so much ignorance uh against around what genocide means
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there is so much Amnesia about the colonial history and what the west
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Western countries and have done to most of the world that there is little
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appreciation for this the you know the depth and the and the gravity of that
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sentence that you you quoted so yeah I mean there is it doesn't mean that
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Israel wanted to kill all Palestinians if they left on their own accord because for me the end goal is
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ethnic cleansing claiming as much land as possible and this can happen without
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without one person being killed but still it would be Erasure complete
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Erasure of Palestinian presence from their Homeland or what remains of their
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Homeland for those who live in the occupied Palestinian territory is it genocidal yes of course it
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is let's let's move on and talk about more about the document um again early
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on in your document you assert and I'm quoting again quote genocide cannot be
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justified under any circumstances including reported self-defense
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unquote so let's accept that premise for a moment that the world has accepted
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that there are no circumstances you cannot say I'm committing genocide because I'm defending myself obviously
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Israel isn't saying that it's committing genocide in order to defend itself what
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it's saying is we're not intending to commit genocide we're just defending ourselves and you know people are dying
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innocent people we accept as a result how how do you counter that argument
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that this is the logic Israel is using is humanitarian camouflage this is what
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I've said in the report Israel has never denied to have killed tens of thousands
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of people to have orphaned and maimed tens of thousands of children to have
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destroyed all universities and schools and most of the hospital infrastructure
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and 70% of the residential I mean housing infrastructure Israel doesn't
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deny that doesn't deny the fact what it changes in Israel's um narrative is the
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qualification Israel calls its targets human Shields or collateral damage
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Israel calls hospitals military bases Israel um defines most of what constitutes
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civilian objects under international law as a military targeted as a military Target either destroyable or in any case
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targetable and this is the genocide of I mean this is what has upheld this operation since the very
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beginning crushing meaning and substance of the basic tenants of international
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humanitarian law which are the principle of distinction between civilian and Military objects and individuals engaged
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in in combat um the principle of proportionality every military action
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needs to be proportionate to um a given military objective and do not uh do not
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translate into excessive um into excessive damage for the civilians 70%
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of the population has steadily been uh I mean victims of this assault has steadily been women and children
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70% of those who have been killed are women and children you know this is not collateral damage this is and the
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creations of conditional life that would lead to the destruction of the people this is something a genocidal act that
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has the intent in itself because it's clear that if you cut water um food
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lines and medications and um uh fuel for
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months it's clear that you you you lead these people to die this is the
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genocidal logic that is behind this Miss military assault so despite what you've said
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about the Israeli government's intent we know that intention is the most difficult
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part of proving an allegation of genocide your analysis the anatomy of genocide provides several quotes
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asserting intent by Israel's leaders and I'd just like to examine those quotes in
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more detail so you've quoted Isaac Herzog
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he's the president of Israel he's the equivalent of King Charles in the United Kingdom he doesn't have any command
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Authority you've quoted yoab Gallant the Minister of Defense who's referred to
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Human animals but it's not clear when I listen to his quote whether he's
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referring to all of Palestinians in general as human animals or was he referring only to Hamas and you've also
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quoted the Israeli Minister Heritage amihai eliyahu um Who provided evidence of
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intent because he advocated nuclear bombing of Gaza but we know that as soon as he said that he was his statement was
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immediately Den Ed by the Prime Minister Netanyahu and he was suspended so so how do any of these quotes prove the
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intention of the Israeli government well first of all I made it
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very clear in the in the report that for me the gist of proving intent was not
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even in statements and because if you look at the Juris Prudence of international tribunals who have dealt
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with a case of genocide um in the statement is uh is
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not sufficient per se the state statement um in first I mean they are an an
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important end liament but it must be supported by the reality on the ground
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and the capacity to commit genocide is not saying saying horrible things per se
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although although there is a database that has been collected and because of
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the word limit of my report I couldn't give more more room to uh any of those
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but I took the statements that I found examining uh the video evidence that has
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been produced by soldiers themselves and I have verified triangulated with uh
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former soldiers or with uh Israeli and Palestinian lawyers to test the vericity
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ETC for me the gist of it is what troops on the ground have done absorbing
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internalizing those orders because you know yeah Human animals they could have said it of Hamas
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first of all there such derogatory language is not helpful and is not acceptable because you couldn't qualify
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as human animals the IDF so that the IDF can be targeted wherever they are combat or non-combat situation so it would have
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been problematic no matter what but it it was a dehumanizing language which
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resonates with how Palestinians are commonly depicted in Israeli societies
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and in fact it has reverberated across the conducts of soldiers soldiers have
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been referring to Palestinians as animals um and these have have been
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these scenes have been captured by cameras uh while they were destroying
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Palestinian homes violating the intimacy of Palestinian homes or Palestinian bodies theyve been treated like animals
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like subhumans so there has been no empathy whatsoever and even the Amal
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Amal language destroy everyone and everything the adults and even the suckling the this is what has happened I
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mean there have been soldiers boosting boasting about the fact that they had killed a 12-year-old girl because there
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were no other younger children around the area so there are hundreds of these
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videos available and I'm sure that many of them are already filed with the with
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the ICC and other Tribunal hopefully so the question there yeah that that's
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that's a a convincing and Powerful response uh I I'd like to just you know
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for the last few minutes of this interview I want to go through some of the principles of international law just
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so our viewers can understand you have mentioned them briefly but I'd like to go through them in more detail so on
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page 18 of your document the anatomy of genocide I'm again quoting here quote
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the attack on the jabalia refugee camp killed at least 126 civilians including
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69 children and injured a further 280 Israeli military personnel affirmed
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that the target was one Hamas commander in an underground base unquote so I I
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think that that that speaks to the the principle of proportionality in
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international humanitarian law can you explain legally for our viewers what international humanitarian law says
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about proportionality and distinction in self-defense and why you think Israel
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has breached those principles so international law is very clear about
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the principle of Distinction proportionality and precautions in military action regardless of whether
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the military action is uh an act of aggression or in self-defense there are
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certain in any case um certain rules have to be observed full stop also
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because it's use COG international law so it cannot be derogated ever um the
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principle of Distinction means that only soldiers or only combatants inactive combat can be
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targeted only if someone is involved in a military operation so a soldier who's
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taking a rest with his family cannot be targeted and same with other forms of
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combatant all the more those who are in in the inner Circle or in the Entourage
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of the combatant or the soldiers cannot be targeted civilians have to be spared
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but even a combatant who's who's been who's been um injured or wounded cannot
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be targeted by Extreme Action needs to be treated humanely and you see all this
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is gone so the principle between uh the principle of distinction between military and civilian objectives
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civilian objectives and civilians must be spared unless they
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become involved into a military action in case for example of human Shields
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which is something that is Israel invokes all over all all over say the is
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Hamas protects itself uh behind Palestinians as human Shields this has never been proven and it is to it cannot
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be used as a blanket argument it is to be proven for each attack that the the
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the people who have been killed could not be avoided because they were used by human Shields but you cannot say that
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all the neighborhoods living around the Hamas combatant is human Shields this is
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nonsense this is nonsense and the the crazy thing you know is that I've seen
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serious lawyers serious legal Scholars her splitting this argument as as Israel
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was saying well but the attack was proportionate and there were people who were really debating about how many
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dozens people can be killed for an attack to be considered proportionate no the attack shouldn't have been launched
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full stop if the target was one person whom we had to Israel has to prove who
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was in active combat and which has caused the the death of dozens and
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killing of hundreds of course this is this is this is not even recklessness this is calculated killing it's it's a
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potential extermination conscious extermination and the can there is the
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other the other element of of proportionality what is proportional in
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an assault that clearly clearly has the potential to in to
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kill dozens and injure many more of course to kill one person again and
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Israel had to prove that that person was in active combat of course it's not proportionate and what are the
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precautions that was taken that were taken to ensure that civilians would be spared by the by the um H by the
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hostilities none and this is why there is no question whatsoever that this was
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intentional conduct aiming to create also deterrence because Israel has been
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using this logic of spreading Terror among the civilians in Gaza so that they
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could revolt against against Hamas I think it's called the dya doctrine and was also
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used in that's really interesting I have to say
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that what really firstly I accept I've got some experience with lawyers and lawyers do tend to hairsplit and do tend
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to argue about the letter of the law forgetting perhaps the spirit of the law
35:45
uh what for me really sets apart your analysis is that you dissect what you say is Israel's manipulation and
35:52
Distortion of international humanitarian law um and for instance the human shield
35:57
argument essentially it looks like Israel is essentially converting the
36:02
entire Palestinian population into either a legitimate Target or a a collateral damage and and
36:10
and as you say in your document therefore making the whole of the Palestinian population um killable or
36:17
destroyable um can you what does this do to international law if if this is
36:22
allowed you for instance I don't think you know Russia for instance in this
36:28
assault on on Ukraine has not designated the entire Ukrainian population as as as
36:34
legitimate targets or part of the supportive structure of legitimate Target what the what would be the effect
36:40
of allowing this to go ahead yeah first of all this creates on
36:45
on on top of being genocidal in my assessment and uh and others are joining
36:53
this uh these analysis uh as the time passes because this analysis has provided a lens to
37:00
analyze what's happening so more and more pieces of evidence are coming as you know pieces of a puzzle and give
37:07
give sense to the overall picture and uh there are two things that are happening
37:14
one is that a civilian an entire civilian population is being quote
37:19
unquote as I say my reports de civilianized meaning deprived of their civilian status that set of uh
37:27
protections through norms and mechanism that differentiate them from everything
37:33
is targetable everything is skillable so this is gone the nuances around what is
37:39
a civilian and what he or she needs to be protected is gone and this is a very
37:45
negative precedent because it can happen again again and there is a president that has already been uh I mean being
37:52
condoned by a large number of member states in international Community uh the
37:59
other the other connected risk with this full erosion of of the respect of
38:06
international law is that uh this way of conducting hostilities against an entire
38:15
population which is framed as hostile uh and also recurring to random means of
38:21
identification of targets including artificial intelligence paved the way of another
38:28
kind of um conduct of hostilities that can easily become proportionate
38:36
genocide this is the concept that is being sort of um tolerated here with uh
38:43
with great impunity and I fear it might become a new method of uh engagement in
38:52
conflicts proportionate genocide that sounds like a a chilling terminology
38:58
my final question for you is about the ICC you may have sensed from this
39:05
interview that I'm quite frustrated I think a lot of people are frustrated by international law because I think the
39:11
key problem is that for instance if I break the law in the United Kingdom there's a British police force who can
39:17
arrest me and and prosecute me for for for for my crime and there doesn't seem
39:23
to be an international police force that can enforce International law so Israel
39:29
can effectively do what it likes and the great powers can effectively do what they like the IC seems to have got Netanyahu
39:37
worried recently there's been several pronouncements about for instance uh withdrawing uh funding from the
39:42
Palestinian Authority if the IC takes action against Israel and I think one of the key things about the IC is that for
39:49
instance the IC is part of British law if the IC issues an arrest warrant then
39:55
British police are obligated to arrest that person if they enter British territory so we know Mass Graves have
40:04
been uncovered recently at alifa hospital we've seen more and more evidence of of of war crimes what are
40:11
the implications of ICC action and yeah how is it different from anything else
40:17
that's come before H it's it's not that is um it's
40:24
different from what has come before is that finally something moves I've said
40:30
over and over that the IC uh the legitimacy of the IC needs
40:37
Palestine almost more than Palestine needs the IC in the sense that so much
40:44
was at stake with these uh war crimes being committed over and over think of
40:51
the settlements I mean I don't understand why there hadn't been arrest warrants issued before I mean even after
40:58
February uh 2020 uh 23 when there was a clear
41:03
annexation process sanctioned at the Israeli government level and nothing
41:09
moved so there has been such a delay in delivering a modum a minimum of Justice
41:16
to the to the Palestinians that has been detrimental detrimental for the israelies as well because then we cannot
41:23
believe we cannot be so naive to believe that is no connection between the
41:28
extremism of the current Israeli government which unfortunately reverberates across a certain portion of
41:36
the Israeli Society we cannot believe that there is no direct connection between these and what Israel has been
41:43
permitted to do uh by means of humiliating and forcing into indignity
41:49
and entire people for decades you know this ubis is producing what Daniel Levy
41:54
calls the boomerang effect of colonization um so what is to expect is that once the
42:02
arrest arrest warrants are out there uh they are given effect to so there should
42:08
be as you are saying in every country which is a um member to the Rome statute
42:15
it should be given a fact and of course the fear is that um countries will find
42:22
the remedies that make the path to Justice even more torturous and more
42:29
difficult it wouldn't be the first time but you know what gives me hope in this uh in this
42:35
Grim uh scenario in this Grim landscape um our young Generations I
42:42
mean I call them watermelon Revolution because this is what they are to me I mean they have built a space of
42:49
Consciousness and The Awakening within the Restriction that has been left um
42:56
again not the flag but still the watermelon it's still Palestine said in another form and in a form that is much
43:04
smarter than how previous generations in my view have articulated because they also know they need to be peaceful they
43:11
need not to react to provocations they this young people are so smart and
43:16
they're leading the way so they this is their society eventually I mean it's their world and it's only fair that they
43:24
decide um that they stand out against Justice because I mean we have uh we
43:31
have not been effective enough in in making sure that a better a
43:37
better world and as a more just World materialized so they the challenges with
43:43
them now yeah so you've you've you've made a very
43:50
important statement there that the ICC needs Palestine more than Palestine needs the ICC and as you've said that
43:57
if the if those in power do not provide Justice then those in power will be
44:04
bypassed and that's probably what's happening with the watermel watermelon Revolution that you just mentioned the
44:11
very significant protests that again have got Netanyahu quite worried that are happening in University campuses
44:16
across the United States Special rapporter I've asked you some very difficult challenging
44:23
questions today thank you for your robust and very forthright answers we're very
44:29
grateful for this interview thank you thank you very much and till the
44:35
next one
