Video Infoblog: Israel Killed Hostages on October 7th, Al Jazeera Doc Shows

Transcript

0:00

Al jazer has released a new documentary

0:02

about what really happened on October

0:04

the 7th and its most striking findings

0:06

concern the possibility that multiple

0:08

Israelis were killed on that day by

0:10

their own side this is an Al jazer news

0:13

report based on the footage from the

0:16

documentary in the chaotic early hours

0:18

of October 7 Israeli forces scrambled to

0:21

engage Hamas

0:24

Fighters Apache helicopter gunships

0:26

fired onto cars driving towards Gaza

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aware that some of them were carrying

0:46

[Music]

0:52

captives without guidance some Pilots

0:54

said they joined local WhatsApp groups

0:56

to help pick targets the idea that

0:59

Pilots have to get information from

1:02

WhatsApp groups is truly remarkable it's

1:05

a sign of the initiative that people are

1:06

looking for any way that they can get

1:09

the information this is an outrage I

1:11

mean what kind of a way is that to fight

1:13

a modern

1:15

war at least 70 Vehicles were hit by

1:18

Attack Helicopters to me it was

1:20

inexcusable for a helicopter or any

1:23

weapon system to be engaging any Target

1:25

if you don't know what that Target is

1:27

now my concern is with this footage we

1:31

cannot tell whether they're Hamas gunmen

1:33

or civilians or possibly hostages and I

1:36

don't believe the helicopter pilot or

1:39

the machine gun operator will be able to

1:41

tell either these big rounds have a

1:43

certain area effect and obviously come

1:45

at a certain rate that if you shoot at a

1:47

group of people you're most likely going

1:49

to kill everyone you are knowingly

1:51

putting your own civilians at risk the i

1:54

unit compiled a detailed list of those

1:56

killed on October 7 it found that 27

1:59

captives died somewhere between their

2:01

homes and the Gaza fence the

2:03

circumstances of those deaths have not

2:06

been

2:07

explained 12 more civilian deaths took

2:09

place in Barry kabut after an attack by

2:12

police and army forces on a house there

2:15

containing captives Israel's Channel 12

2:18

spoke to

2:20

[Music]

2:28

survivors

2:46

the investigative unit asked the Israeli

2:48

Army for comment on its actions on

2:50

October 7 they did not reply I spoke

2:53

earlier to the director of that Al jazer

2:56

documentary he's called Richard Sanders

2:58

and I began by asking him how many

3:00

civilians he thought could have been

3:02

killed by Israeli forces on October the

3:04

7th it's quite difficult really pinning

3:07

down the specifics of how many people

3:09

die and in what way they die we've put

3:12

an enormous amount of work into this and

3:13

and have this a list we've drawn up we

3:16

can't pretend it's it's definitive one

3:19

of The Oddities of the whole story is

3:21

that the Israelis Farm out the

3:23

collection of bodies to this

3:25

organization called zacha which is a

3:27

voluntary Ultra Orthodox religion

3:30

organization which firstly is you know

3:32

they're amateurs they're not they're not

3:33

professionals they're not trained in

3:35

this sort of thing they're particularly

3:36

not trained in forensics and and also to

3:39

be fair to them they were simply

3:40

overwhelmed that the scale of this was

3:42

something they'd never done before but

3:43

it's quite clear that photographs bodies

3:46

were not photographed in situ careful

3:48

notes of exactly where bodies were found

3:50

and in what state they were found were

3:52

not made so an absolutely clear and

3:55

definitive map of who died where they

3:58

died how they died why they died died

4:00

will probably never be done simply

4:01

because of the mistakes that were made

4:03

in the first sort of 48 Hours um after

4:06

the massacre itself um

4:10

now it's quite clear that a number of

4:13

people were killed by Israeli forces the

4:16

um the Israeli newspaper yot aranot has

4:19

reported that the Hannibal directive was

4:21

issued at midday on the 7th now the

4:25

Hannibal directive is something the

4:26

Israelis have used in the past it

4:28

results from the embarrass ments they've

4:30

had where they've they've had to

4:31

exchange hundreds even thousands of

4:33

Palestinian prisoners for for just one

4:36

Israeli soldier they clearly wanted to

4:38

avoid that happening again and a

4:40

directive um it's widely accepted was

4:43

issued to the Israeli military that if

4:45

you if a if soldiers look like they're

4:47

going to be captured and taken off to

4:49

Lebanon or or to the Gaza Strip or

4:51

wherever better to kill everyone than

4:54

than to allow that to happen now that

4:56

directive was supposedly rescinded a few

4:58

years ago but it's been it's been

5:00

reported in the Israeli press or

5:02

specifically by yot Baron not that it

5:04

was revived at midday on the 7th and the

5:08

Israeli Army has not denied this now we

5:12

we have two types um of friendly fire

5:16

that happened the first is Apache

5:18

gunships which are mobilized from very

5:20

early on on on the 7th for a long time

5:22

in fact they're the only sort of

5:24

presence the Israeli Defense Force has

5:26

in the area at all now we have

5:28

definitive proof that one person one

5:30

hostage is killed by um an Apache

5:33

gunship but if you actually just look at

5:35

the footage and the Israelis released

5:37

enormous amounts of footage gun camera

5:39

footage I think in an effort to show

5:40

they were doing something on on the

5:43

seventh if you just look at that footage

5:45

Common Sense tells you in a lot of those

5:47

shots at least they can't possibly know

5:49

who they're shooting at now we we

5:51

scrutinized the data very very carefully

5:54

and we came up with a figure of 27

5:56

people who are clearly taken hostage and

5:59

clearly and and and leave their homes

6:02

are taken from their homes or taken into

6:04

the sort of possession of um Palestinian

6:07

gunman but never make it to the fence

6:09

and die in circumstances that have not

6:11

been explained it seems to me there is a

6:14

fairly strong probability that a number

6:16

of them were killed by by um fire from

6:19

helicopter gunships um zacha told us

6:23

they had handed over 21 bodies to the

6:26

authorities which they identified as

6:28

Palestinian bodies which were then sent

6:30

back they said no no no these These are

6:31

Israeli bodies and again Common Sense

6:34

would suggest those were bodies that

6:35

were not found in their homes and and

6:37

were found surrounded by Palestinians

6:40

again that may be an indication of

6:42

people who were killed by helicopter

6:43

gunships you then have people who are

6:45

killed by um friendly fire from from

6:48

ground forces there's one particular

6:50

incident in in um kibot ber where 12

6:54

people are killed and they're almost

6:55

certainly killed by um by the Israeli

6:58

police and arm

6:59

and we know about this because we have

7:01

survivors it's quite likely there are a

7:03

number of other other incidences where

7:06

people are killed by Israeli forces that

7:07

we don't know about because there are no

7:08

survivors and you you just have to it

7:11

was a very interesting thing as the

7:12

Press went into the kibot Sim kibot Sim

7:15

in the day after um days after October

7:18

the 7th they you can often hear them

7:19

sort of looking around them saying hang

7:21

on this the scale of damage here can't

7:23

have been done by people with RPGs

7:25

rocket Propel grenades and and and

7:26

machine guns some something bigger has

7:28

been used

7:29

now some of that damage is fire damage

7:32

um Hamas were setting fire to houses to

7:35

try and drive people out of their their

7:37

safe rooms so you know sometimes houses

7:39

are destroyed by fire and that that is

7:41

very likely to be Hamas but a lot of

7:43

houses are ruined they just collapsed

7:45

and had not been burned down they'd

7:47

clearly been hit by Israeli fire so we

7:50

came up with a figure of 18 people where

7:52

we're quite certain were killed um by

7:54

Israeli Ground Forces but again there's

7:56

a potential larger number of people who

7:58

were found under the of their destroyed

8:00

home and we simply don't know how they

8:01

died having watched the documentary

8:03

seems there there's two big arguments

8:05

you're making about both Israel and the

8:07

Western media which is that many of the

8:09

sort of sadistic atrocities um that we

8:12

heard about were exaggerated or or

8:13

simply didn't happen and also Israeli

8:16

forces did kill some Israelis you know

8:19

So-Cal Friendly Fire Let's be clear

8:21

though because you did also show um that

8:24

Hamas committed lots of war crimes and

8:27

and killed lots of people right so can

8:29

you talk about that please this film is

8:31

not an apologia for Hamas and the other

8:34

people who passed through the fence that

8:35

day um we okay we've identified people

8:38

who were killed by the Israelis there

8:40

are a small minority even even the

8:42

highest possible number of people who

8:44

were killed by the Israelis remain a

8:45

small minority of the overall number of

8:49

unarmed civilians who were killed that

8:51

day um you watch the first half of the

8:54

film and we lay it out in in graphic

8:56

detail just exactly what Hamas do do do

9:00

that day and they kill almost 800

9:02

unarmed civilians that is absolutely

9:04

clear and we shouldn't shy away from

9:06

that we then spend the second half of of

9:09

the film talking about what Hamas did

9:11

not do and this is specifically the sort

9:13

of butchering and murdering and

9:15

mutilating of babies and widespread and

9:18

systematic rape now this is not pedantry

9:21

this is not nitpicking you know we're

9:22

not saying all people died in this way

9:24

they rather than in that way it's

9:26

significant because in justifying the

9:29

scale and the ferocity of the Israeli

9:32

response of the assault on the Gaza

9:35

Strip and the bombardment and the number

9:36

of Civilian

9:37

casualties again and again Israeli and

9:41

Western politicians reference babies and

9:44

rape it's what's used again and again to

9:46

justify this the the the savagery of the

9:49

Israeli response now let's break them

9:51

down um babies in a way is pretty

9:54

straightforward I'm afraid you look at

9:55

the list of the Dead there are two

9:56

babies there one baby is killed um when

9:59

a bullet is fired through the door of a

10:01

safe room in kot's bety the other baby

10:04

the mother is hit in her car and there's

10:07

an emergency cesarian and the baby dies

10:10

so those are the two babies that die on

10:13

um October the 7th neither is beheaded

10:15

neither is burned so every story you see

10:18

about babies um that is not does not

10:21

correspond to those two and there are a

10:23

lot of stories about babies is untrue

10:26

okay and and that immediately flags up

10:30

for you that there is there is a huge

10:31

problem with information that is coming

10:33

from First Responders from Israeli Army

10:36

officials and from Israeli government

10:39

officials there is huge problem and if

10:41

there is a huge problem of that with

10:43

babies then there's likely to be a big

10:44

problem in other areas now let's turn to

10:47

the the very vexed and fraught issue of

10:49

of rape the um Israeli has maintain

10:53

they've been rather abandoned by

10:54

feminists around the world who don't

10:55

seem to regard the suffering of Israeli

10:58

women as seriously as they would others

11:00

now again we we've looked into this very

11:03

very carefully

11:06

um for firstly we're not saying there

11:08

were no rapes on um October the 7th

11:11

there may there quite possibly will have

11:13

been invariably when young men have guns

11:17

and are licensed to commit violence

11:18

there is sexual violence invariably so

11:20

we're not saying there was no rape at

11:22

all um we simply don't know what there

11:24

clearly was not was widespread

11:27

systematic weaponized instrumentalized

11:29

rape and we we say that because there

11:32

simply isn't the evidence for it um you

11:35

look at the Visual Evidence we've looked

11:37

seven hours of footage from October the

11:39

7th dash cams and body cams from dead

11:42

Hass Fighters CCTV and that sort of

11:45

thing and there is no there's no

11:46

indication of sexual violence on that

11:48

material none at all you then have

11:50

thousands of postmortem photos none of I

11:54

mean you know they'll they'll point to

11:55

an image of a woman with blood on her

11:57

trousers I mean you know really if that

11:59

is the strongest evidence they have it's

12:01

it's really not very strong and the

12:03

Israelis keep

12:04

referencing um images they they talk a

12:07

lot about um young women tied to trees

12:10

tied to posts um with their lower half

12:13

of their clothing removed but there's no

12:16

images of this there's no images at all

12:18

now zacha says well look we weren't

12:20

asked to take images we weren't

12:22

systematically doing this is not what

12:23

we're trained for and so on even so it's

12:27

it's surprising not to have a single

12:29

image that supports that really supports

12:32

the idea that that there was widespread

12:34

rape or or rape at all in fact is odd

12:37

and raises questions there was of course

12:39

one image which we we took rather

12:40

seriously and looked into quite closely

12:42

a young woman who is killed um nine

12:45

miles north of the music festival site

12:48

there there there is a very graphic

12:51

video of her of her that was put up

12:53

online by the Israelis um they did blur

12:55

it but um you can see she's not wearing

12:58

any underwear

12:59

uh and this she's lying by a roadside by

13:01

a main roadside this was held up and and

13:04

this became the centerpiece of a report

13:06

in the New York Times um where the New

13:09

York Times was alleging widespread and

13:11

systematic rape and it fell apart within

13:13

days because the family came out and

13:15

said hold on we know we know she wasn't

13:17

raped they'd received a text from her

13:19

just a few minutes before she died also

13:21

very importantly her husband I believe

13:23

subsequently died from the moment she

13:26

died and 44 minutes afterwards was on

13:28

the phone to his brother and never never

13:31

mentioned a rape in in the course of

13:33

this whole um conversation so that

13:37

evidence is simply missing it's very

13:40

striking that it's missing there's no

13:41

forensic evidence again they can point

13:43

to the chaos of the day and and so on

13:45

but there is you know the fact is there

13:46

is no um forensic evidence the other

13:50

thing again you know I'd invite you just

13:53

app apply journalistic Common Sense here

13:56

the AL there there are a couple of

13:58

Witnesses okay there's one or two others

14:01

who've been interviewed by individual

14:03

journalists but then seem to have

14:04

disappeared but there's a couple of

14:05

witnesses who we include in the film um

14:09

now these rapes are supposedly happening

14:11

at the the music festival site which is

14:13

an open site it's an outdoor festival

14:16

and although hundreds of people are

14:17

killed at that music festival the vast

14:19

you know the overwhelming majority of

14:20

people are not killed the majority of

14:22

people there survive there are thousands

14:24

of people there and the majority survive

14:27

again there can explanations for this um

14:31

people are traumatized they may not come

14:32

forward for some time and all this is

14:34

true even so common sense says you would

14:36

expect more witnesses if if people are

14:39

being raped out in the open on a

14:42

widespread scale certainly you would

14:44

expect more witnesses the two witnesses

14:46

that have come forward one of them a

14:48

police witness who is anonymous also

14:52

says she saw gunman carrying the severed

14:54

heads of three women around which no one

14:57

else saw um um and the one who is not

15:01

Anonymous um again I mean it's string

15:04

he's hiding behind a bush there are five

15:06

other people behind the bush with him

15:07

and none of them have said they saw a

15:09

rape so I'm you know I'm not disputing

15:11

what he says you know he you know that

15:13

he's given his testimony he's given it a

15:14

number of times um but even with the

15:18

witnesses there are there you one or two

15:20

questions spring to mind so I've given

15:23

you a very long answer there but you

15:24

know it's obviously a very

15:26

important and fraught and sensitive

15:28

subject and having looked at the

15:29

evidence very carefully we simply feel

15:34

there is not there is not the evidence

15:36

for widespread and systematic rape and

15:38

Human Rights Watch very very reputable

15:41

very serious human rights organization

15:43

is doing a very in-depth study and I

15:46

would urge people before they reach

15:48

final conclusions to wait and read the

15:52

Human Rights Watch report in a couple of

15:53

months you've talked there about sort of

15:56

the approach that one should take to to

15:58

test testimony um and I know that

16:00

immediately after October 7th I was

16:02

quite surprised at sort of how basically

16:05

all the TV channels and journalists were

16:07

speaking to people from this

16:08

organization zaka and especially one of

16:11

their leaders called Yosi landow as if

16:14

what they were saying was was gospel and

16:16

this wasn't just sort of right-wing

16:17

media Outlets channel 4 news I

16:18

distinctly remember sort of had a had a

16:21

somewhat falling interview with him in

16:22

fact and you demonstrate I think very

16:25

well in your documentary that many of

16:27

the things that this man Yosi landow

16:29

told the media couldn't possibly be true

16:34

where do you think the media has gone

16:35

wrong in sort of listening and

16:39

amplifying um people's testimony because

16:41

obviously you know the media shouldn't

16:42

ignore testimony from First Responders

16:44

but I clearly something has gone wrong

16:46

here firstly to be fair to the media um

16:50

you know you you you assume you're being

16:51

told the truth by by First Responders

16:53

why why wouldn't you be being told the

16:55

truth then to be fair to the First

16:57

Responders I think they were quite

16:58

traumatized they had seen Dreadful

17:00

things they were overwhelmed um as

17:03

zachar itself eventually said they are

17:05

not forensically trained and were often

17:07

providing interpretations of things

17:08

they've seen with they had no

17:10

qualifications um to present I think

17:13

what was unforgivable is as the days

17:15

went by that the media didn't start to

17:17

scrutinize more and with the babies the

17:20

the 14 be babies many of whom were

17:23

beheaded I mean that actually began to

17:25

unravel fairly quickly that um and once

17:29

that had unraveled at that point

17:31

skepticism should have kicked in uh and

17:33

once skepticism had kicked in it should

17:36

also have been applied to the sexual

17:38

violence issue and that's where I think

17:41

the media the Western media really

17:44

failed Western media and Western

17:46

politicians I mean the the is Israeli

17:48

government was quite happy to Parrot all

17:50

this stuff and you see in our film you

17:52

see Biden picking it up you see David

17:53

Lamy picking it up um you know they to

17:57

have questioned it and the media the

18:00

Western media ought to have been

18:01

questioning it and on the sexual

18:02

violence thing the guardian the BBC the

18:05

New York Times all did very similar

18:08

pieces where they when you read it

18:11

really carefully they were clearly

18:12

taking almost all their information from

18:14

Israeli officials and First Responders

18:17

and it's it's rather surprising they

18:19

weren't exercising more skep skepticism

18:23

and scrutiny at that

18:25

point so you you've talked about the

18:27

extent to which sort of the western

18:29

media took for granted that Hamas had

18:31

done things which it doesn't seem there

18:33

is sufficient evidence to say they in

18:34

fact did and you sort of said that

18:36

that's incredibly relevant because it is

18:38

you know it's by posing this image of

18:40

absolute disgust these were sort of

18:41

sadistic depraved people that that the

18:44

justification for a genocid or War has

18:46

sort of been made um but you are clear

18:49

that Hamas did commit war crimes and I

18:50

suppose after investigating this

18:54

incident and making this documentary do

18:56

you feel that you are any wise

18:59

as to what Hamas were trying to do on

19:03

that day what do we know they did and do

19:05

you have a sense of why they did it what

19:08

they were thinking I think it's very

19:10

straightforward why they did it and I

19:12

think um Dr Bassam name in in our film

19:15

explains it one of the again very

19:17

peculiar things about Western coverage

19:19

is in all all the Western coverage I've

19:20

seen people never reference the great

19:22

March of return in 2018 2019

19:26

Palestinians in the Gaza Strip

19:27

peacefully demonstrated for months on

19:29

end um you know demanding a return to

19:32

their lands freedom justice

19:35

um and and so on and and the Israelis

19:39

simply lined up behind C boms and shot

19:42

them you know the hundreds were killed

19:45

um you know there was a very clear

19:48

peaceful Mass protest movement and it

19:52

was brutally crushed um over 60 people

19:55

were killed in a single day on one day

19:58

and you know frankly bluntly here in

20:00

Britain we spent the whole of that

20:01

period talking about anti-Semitism in

20:03

the labor party you know and and it was

20:06

it was it was remarkable it was

20:09

extraordinary they made these enormous

20:11

sacrifices the Palestinians basically

20:12

worked out that they had to die in very

20:15

large numbers to make headlines in the

20:18

west and they did die in very large

20:19

numbers and they they didn't really make

20:21

the headlines in the west it made no

20:22

difference at all now Dr Naim in our

20:25

film says and and I think there's no

20:27

reason not to take this absolutely a

20:29

face value that many times they

20:31

discussed in in the sort of National

20:34

Council of the um of Hamas what are we

20:36

going to do what do we do I mean we we

20:38

we either sit here and die or we have to

20:40

do something and they decided to do

20:43

something and and this is what they did

20:45

now why they killed so many civilians um

20:49

because they could have done this and

20:50

they you know they could have bypassed

20:52

the Kut they could have purely attacked

20:54

military targets because there were

20:55

plenty of military targets around the um

20:59

the Gaza Strip I I think the game plan

21:01

was to take hostages was to take

21:02

hostages um as much as possible um I

21:07

think and again I hope this is clear in

21:08

the film they were taken by surprise by

21:11

the success they hadn't expected the

21:14

Israeli military to just fold in front

21:15

of them I extraordinary um you've got

21:18

you remember the reputation the Israeli

21:22

military has you know I think this is

21:24

why some sort of wild conspiracy

21:26

theorists started to do the rounds in

21:28

the days after October the 7th it was

21:31

astonishing the Israeli intelligence and

21:34

Military failure and it it meant that

21:37

Hamas suddenly found themselves you know

21:38

masters of the terrain they they they

21:40

had freedom of movement at that point

21:42

and again we make this point in the film

21:44

I think their their deficiencies as a

21:47

military organization were revealed

21:50

basically the way it works in in war is

21:53

young men with guns will behave badly uh

21:56

if you let them okay young men with yeah

21:58

a significant proportion of young men

21:59

with guns given licensed to do what they

22:01

want will behave very badly that's

22:04

pretty much a given in War what stops

22:06

them doing that is good leadership

22:08

particularly good sort of platoon level

22:09

ground level leadership and it was quite

22:11

clear Hamas didn't have that so once

22:14

they were there they they had free reign

22:15

in the kutzas and so on um the

22:19

leadership to reign in these young men

22:21

was was lacking and in fact in the foes

22:23

in the the sort of company commanders

22:25

and platoon commanders whatever they are

22:27

are engaging in it as well so um I can

22:32

certainly see what Hass were trying to

22:34

do strategically politically and so on

22:36

and there's an obvious logic to to that

22:40

um the wholesale killing of civilians

22:43

first and formost obviously is is

22:45

morally wrong it's wrong whoever does it

22:47

um but secondly it was it seems to me it

22:49

was strategically tactically wrong as

22:51

well because it did give the Israelis

22:54

initially at least an enormous amount of

22:56

moral Capital which they were they were

22:58

quite prepared to make use of you look

23:00

back throughout history when you have

23:02

slave UPR risings when you have

23:04

uprisings of indigenous people subject

23:06

peoples in the Indian Mutiny as we still

23:08

call it as a classic

23:09

example in repressing that people will

23:13

always accuse the rebels of murdering

23:15

babies and raping women it's a it's a

23:17

tried and tested tactic throughout the

23:19

ages to dehumanize people and to portray

23:22

them as Savages as Marco Ruby actually

23:25

calls the Palestinians in our film and

23:28

given that that is such an established

23:30

historical pattern again it's quite

23:32

remarkable in the days and weeks after

23:34

October the 7th that more people in the

23:36

western media didn't hear some alarm

23:38

bells ringing about the rhetoric that

23:39

was being used about what had supposedly

23:41

happened on October the 7th that was

23:44

Richard Sanders whose alzer documentary

23:46

will be out later this week and we'll be

23:49

doing uh more coverage of that

23:52

documentary when it is out because

23:54

there's lots of really really

23:55

significant content in that I think

23:57

you're you'll like to

24:07

see