Video Infoblog with Transcript: Hyperimperialism: US/NATO’s Dangerous and Decadent New Stage, with Vijay P.rashad

Transcript

0:00

when a ruling class loses track of its Destiny when it has no project anymore

0:07

when it simply uh understands itself to have the habit of rule that we must

0:13

remain in power but with no reason to be in power that ruling class becomes increasingly decadent take a look at the

0:21

North Atlantic governments you know Mr Biden Trump what's their vision for the

0:26

for for the United States let alone for the world all schz of Germany No

0:31

narrative Rishi sunak of the UK no narrative Kia starmer labor party head

0:36

in the UK no Narrative of the Future No Destiny you know for the people who govern Emanuel macro I mean to even

0:44

consider the word destiny in the same sentence as the name pretty ridiculous

0:49

you know hello everyone I'm Ria cic and this is dispatches we're living in a dangerous time of hyper imperialism an

0:56

imperialism on steroids an imperialism that seeks to destroy and punish anyone

1:03

who refuses to submit to the current crumbling order and the imperialists have shown that in the case of Gaza

1:10

they're willing to carry out genocide to get their way what is this new era of

1:15

hyper imperialism actually mean where do Gaza NATO and the Cold War on China fit

1:21

in how is the decline of global North hegemony In This Moment Shifting the geopolitical landscape are there new

1:28

possibilities for emergent organ organizations of the global South how do we even maintain hope as we watch an

1:34

extermination campaign unfold in Gaza to discuss this and more I'm joined by

1:41

author historian and journalist VJ Pasad the executive director of The

1:46

tricontinental Institute for social research Chief correspondent for globe Trotter and chief editor of left word

1:53

books but before we jump into it this is just part of this episode the full interview is available to breakr new

2:00

members only you can become a member at patreon.com breakthrough newws and as

2:06

always be sure to hit the Subscribe button and the Bell so you get a notification whenever we post new content and if you appreciate this show

2:13

you can also donate Below on YouTube BJ welcome back to dispatches great to be with you um yeah

2:21

I heard there was thunder outside your window so God knows what it is yeah we

2:26

play this game in Beirut and actually all in Lebanon called uh it thunderstorm or Israeli air strike it's actually it's

2:32

a game that goes loud noises or Israeli air strike which I'm being a little bit funny here but you got to have some dark

2:38

humor and dark times and we're gonna talk a bit about the dark times that we're in right now VJ I want to talk to

2:46

you about about Gaza about a lot of other issues around the world too and I

2:51

think a good place to start is you know you TR your um Outlet The tricontinental

2:56

Institute just published a very very important document called hyper

3:02

imperialism a dangerous decadent news stage um and it's an excellent document

3:09

I will link to it in the description I encourage everybody to go check it out uh and so for our listeners and viewers

3:15

VJ can you explain what is hyper imperialism and why does it matter it's

3:23

a really interesting um issue uh looking at at the situation in the world today

3:29

uh and trying to figure out what concepts do we use you know um there was

3:34

a time during the conflict in Syria when the Russians intervened in 2015 to block

3:42

a US regime change and there was a lot of talk about imperialism you know

3:48

competing imperialism Russian imperialism and US imperialism well that

3:53

you know provoked some thought is there really something called Russian imperialism or Chinese imperialism and

4:00

how does one go about doing an assessment of it well one place to begin

4:05

was military spending and this was interesting because the conventional

4:10

military spending Outlet the Stockholm Institute um you know accepts what

4:16

governments tell them about their particular military spending so they in

4:21

fact deflate US military spending quite dramatically because the United States

4:26

Department of Defense is only one place where it's um you know government spends

4:32

towards armed you know armed armed struggle you know the international armed struggle well you know you got to

4:38

look for instance at the department of energy to learn about nuclear weapon spending and so on put everything

4:45

together and then looked at all the country's military spending adjusted in a reasonable way and we discovered that

4:54

the United States is of course overwhelmingly the largest spender but that's not enough when you add in the

5:01

NATO plus countries you discover that

5:06

75% of global military spending the share of global military spending 75% is

5:13

spent by the NATO plus countries that that is an extraordinary number um China

5:20

accounts for 12% of global military spending you know if you don't start with these material realities get a grip

5:28

of how power works real power um you don't really understand what a term like

5:33

imperialism means so this was a good place to begin because you really get to

5:38

see that it's the United States and its block um that has the capacity of blowing up Bridges all over the world um

5:46

and in fact you know the Russians and the Chinese are mostly defensive Powers they don't have the capacity to go and

5:52

blow up a bridge anywhere in the world you know they just don't have the military capacity they don't have the

5:58

aircraft carriers they you don't have um the the the bases United States has

6:03

about 900 military bases around the world it's just a mindblowing number so

6:10

merely in terms of the hardware of power the United States and its block um is

6:16

got no comparison well then we work backwards R and looked at you know what

6:21

has imperialism meant over time and just quickly I'll periodize the history of

6:27

imperialism very quickly when Lenin who wrote his pamphlet in um 1915 and 1916

6:35

Lenin published imperialism around 1916 he made a pretty astute observation

6:41

he was interested how come the major Powers have gone to war this was the

6:47

Great War of 1914 what Lenin argued is that corporations within countries

6:54

within the territory of a country had a tendency to develop into monopolies and

6:59

then when they wanted to exceed the boundaries of their territory they clashed with large corporations from

7:07

other territories and that led to what Lenin argued was a inter imperialist

7:12

conflict leading to war well that was correct for his time then you move to

7:18

the post post World War II era because really there's one long war from 1914 to

7:25

1945 if you go to the Post World War I era the world is divided quite um evenly

7:32

into two blocks into the capitalist Le block with the United States at the lead

7:38

and then the Socialist block with the Soviet Union and for a while China and

7:43

so on and there was the third world as the third entity um these two major blocks the so the Socialists and the

7:50

Communists confronted each other directly this was not an inter imperialist conflict this was a conflict

7:57

between the capitalist States and the social states with the collapse of the USSR you move into a new period of

8:04

unipolarity where the United States tries to extend its power across the whole world finding no challenge to it

8:11

and subordinating Europe as a consequence subordination had started in the previous phase well since the third

8:19

gr depression in 2006 to 2008 onward when the financial Market collaps in the

8:26

in the Western countries and so on from the third Great Depression onward the Western countries have had a hard time

8:33

the global North hard time managing the um their role as the unipolar agent in

8:40

the world and they have to deal with the rise of a number of countries not just Russia and China but India Indonesia

8:47

other countries and this is the phase we're in we call it hyper imperialist because the West unable to actually

8:54

confront these countries economically has resorted to the use of hard power

8:59

which includes both military power bombing and so on coups but also sanctions um this is the era of hyper

9:07

imp a dangerous phace because the West being so militarily powerful so much

9:13

advantage over the others can exercise its power almost without Challenge and

9:18

it's decadent because they don't have a project for the for the planet they are just trying to hold on to their P so

9:25

that in a sense R that's hyper imperialism so that's a really really important explanation in brief and I

9:32

really do encourage people to go check out the re report because it's incredibly detailed and it goes through

9:37

the historical phases that you're talking about it has some really nice charts uh I showed uh one of them on

9:43

screen for those who are watching just of the military spending that you're discussing but to go back to okay the

9:49

era we're in it's hyper imperialism can you contextualize this

9:54

in the context of Gaza NATO and Ukraine and the cold war with China um I think

10:01

it's really important to understand those three things that might to a lot of people seem completely disconnected

10:08

as being very much a part of this era of hyper imperialism that you're talking

10:13

about well you know let's just take the two main categories of our times Global

10:19

North and Global South when the Russian troops entered Ukraine there was a great deal of frustration in Western countries

10:26

they wanted very much to see countries like IND India many African States and so on break ties with Russia these

10:33

countries refused they said we are not going to do that um India which has a farite government also refused quite

10:39

forthrightly foreign minister J Shanker said no look we're not going to do this in fact later he said we don't accept

10:47

the NATO mindset well this provoked a lot of thinking in capitals in the global North what is this thing called

10:54

the global South and why are they all being so disobedient well they tried to understand what is the concept Global

11:00

South I was quite interested in a press conference given by the Japanese foreign

11:06

Ministry where the spokesperson she was asked what is this thing called the global South and she had a hard time

11:12

answering and then Japan which produces an annual Blue Book their kind of report

11:17

on they how they see the world spent some time in the Blue Book trying to explain the global South but it was

11:23

largely incoherent they kept saying we think it's basically the developing countries that's not really

11:29

enough of a of a concept you know it's not enough analysis anyway um so we

11:35

decided to look at these terms Global North and Global South and you'll understand why it's important to talk

11:42

about Ukraine through this um this these Concepts and Gaza through these Concepts well the global South is for sure not a

11:50

military Alliance it's not really a political Unity there is no intelligence sharing it's a group of countries with

11:58

various different little groupings that they are attempting certainly most of them belong to the N the non- Align

12:04

movement set up in 1961 but it doesn't really carry the kind of weight that it

12:10

used to about 60 years ago you know the N is a much much weakened body um there

12:16

are other newer groupings the bricks the bricks plus and so on but they've yet to

12:21

actually meet their potential they are still pretty open-ended groups of

12:27

countries you know Saudi Arabia and and for instance Brazil you know what do these countries share at this moment not

12:34

much yet and we could get into that if you'd like the global North on the other hand is actually a block it's a

12:42

political block where the anchor of it is the G7 it's a military block the

12:47

anchor of that is NATO and then NATO plus with these NATO um you know allies

12:52

and so on South Korea Japan and then there's an intelligence block the 14

12:58

eyes intelligence block Israel is deeply ensconced in the

13:04

um in the global North Block it's part of the 14 eyes Network very much part of

13:10

the kind of NATO worldview and so on um so it has to be understood as part of

13:16

the global North now the west or or the United States in particular has been

13:22

almost desperate to find a way to deal with Russia and and China in particular

13:28

the ch Chinese economy has just exploded since um the same time as the collapse

13:35

or the third grade depression has struck the North Atlantic states and much of the former Third World um you know the

13:42

Great Depression really is something that these countries can't get out of and yet China has exited this particular

13:49

predicament this has really frustrated Western countries they've tried to kneecap the Chinese economy can't use

13:56

Huawei don't let them have semiconductor chips and so on none of this seems to be working on the other side um because of

14:03

the idy of the US Wars you know the war um against Iran sanctions War but it's

14:09

really a war by Any Other Name the war against Iraq the war against Libya and so on energy uh transfers into Europe

14:18

have been really compromised you know you couldn't get uh much of the Middle East energy easy into Iran into Europe

14:26

so Europe began to rely more and more on Russian energy this frustrated the United States Russia began to have a

14:33

greater impact um on Europe so what you began to see was this integration of

14:38

Eurasia and the United States basically understood that to weaken Russia the

14:43

phrase used by Lloyd tin Ukraine was an excellent instrument and to weaken China

14:49

Taiwan was a great instrument these were the two principle you know little pokes

14:55

against both Russia and China now it's interesting what does Gaza have to do

15:01

with all this well we know that the question of Palestine has a slightly separate uh you know trajectory it's

15:08

it's about the Israeli supremacist idea that they will one way or the other either expel all the Palestinians kill

15:15

them or subordinate them into second third class citizens that's a slightly separate Dynamic when this conflict

15:23

breaks out with this qualitatively new bombardment of Gaza it's not like any

15:29

war I've seen you know not even like the wars that were there in Afghanistan or Iraq it's really different it dragged

15:36

itself into this conflict where the global North had to fully defend Israel

15:42

fully back Israel in this genocidal conflict and the global South countries

15:48

lined up behind Palestine including China and and Russia had to line up behind Palestine so the conflict where

15:55

the front lines were Ukraine and Taiwan all Al became Gaza even though this the

16:01

the the Palestinian question was slightly removed from it it has been dragged into this so that's why you see

16:09

countries like South Africa you know take a complaint against Israel to the international court of justice not the

16:15

first time South Africa's done this they did this around the apath wall in 2002

16:20

and one but they've come now to directly confront the global North countries so

16:26

this conflict between the global North and the the rest um you know has now

16:31

become also part of the Palestine question where Israel has thought you

16:37

know we'll just wall up the Palestinians as normal and this time qualitatively much more harsh bombardment and we'll

16:45

get a clean pass from everybody but I think they were also surprised to see

16:50

this new mood in the South exert itself so in that sense these things are part

16:56

of the same story now yeah it's quite interesting and then one aspect of the

17:01

Trion report um that uh goes into some detail is the idea of the decline of the

17:08

West and I think you know on the surface the West seems stronger than ever right like it's able to you know the US has

17:16

all these military bases that we showed you you talked about the amount of military spending by these you know

17:23

us-led NATO block countries which is 75% of the world's military spending they

17:28

have a presence all around the world they're able to control economies they sanction a third of the world they're

17:35

able to carry out a genocide quite horrifically live streamed in front of

17:40

all of us um and uh it feels like at this point and we're I want to talk to

17:45

you about this a little bit further into this episode and it feel you know I think a lot of people are starting to feel helpless about their ability to

17:51

even stop that in these supposedly Democratic countries but all that's to say you know how do you Rec Rec concile

17:59

what I just laid out with the idea that the West is in Decline um can you

18:04

elaborate on what it means for the West to be in some sort of Decline and I know the report goes specifically into what

18:10

that has meant for Europe and Japan for example yeah so you know the the

18:15

subtitle of the report uses two words decadent and dangerous I already alluded to them let's come back to the word

18:22

decadent because it's important and it was chosen quite precisely what does

18:27

decadent have to do do with the current stage what is decadence you see when a

18:34

leadership of any kind but in particular since the French Revolution when the various bazis you know the the middle

18:41

classes that helped overthrow monarchies when they came uh into the public eye

18:47

when they came before the people the mass of the people they had a project you know they had something to say like

18:54

we're going to overthrow the monarchy and we're going to create a civilization

18:59

of eality Liber fraternity you know the this was the claran call of the French

19:05

Revolution it resounded and it had it had a material basis to it that we're

19:11

going to create a state structure where you don't have to walk around bowing to people because they're monarchs um that

19:17

means that Merchants don't have to pay an enormous tax to keep Versa going and

19:24

so on um we're going to have business flourish we're going to have ordinary people have dignity and so on that was a

19:31

project you know a real project it was the project of the buasi and it lasted

19:37

for a long period of time I mean you know let let's not underestimate the power of that project it it succeeded in

19:44

overthrowing a number of monarchs around the world not just in in Europe um you

19:49

know part of this was the revolution in the United States against uh the British you know it had a certain charge the

19:56

people who were there you know racists and slavers that they were nonetheless

20:02

they had a project we're going to do this for the people only whites in the United States but that was still a

20:08

project they had some idea of how the future was going to look um when the

20:13

Russian Revolution took place there was a serious project there you know um you know Lenin and Company said we're going

20:20

to erase illiteracy we're going to erase hunger we're going to do all these great things we have a project when a ruling

20:28

class loses track of its Destiny when it has no project anymore when it's simply uh

20:36

understands itself to have the habit of rule that we must remain in power but

20:41

with no reason to be in power that ruling class becomes increasingly decadent and we've seen this over

20:48

history you know the decadence of ruling classes which just lose the energy uh to

20:53

do anything but take a look at the North Atlantic governments you know Mr Biden

20:59

Trump what's their vision for the for for the United States let alone for the

21:04

world they don't have a vision for the United States you know minor things you know um income earned income tax credits

21:11

I mean that's not a vision what's a compelling narrative that you have Olaf Schulz of Germany No narrative Rishi

21:19

sunak of the UK no narrative Kia stama labor party head in the UK no Narrative

21:25

of the Future No Destiny you know for the people who govern Emanuel macron I mean to even consider

21:31

the word destiny in the same sentences the name Emanuel Mac it's pretty ridiculous you know they don't have an

21:38

understanding of their role in the world and what that does is if you don't have a project if you don't have a compelling

21:45

reason to be um seeking power you are decadent because all that you're

21:50

concerned about is the exercise of power itself and you see this increasingly in

21:56

these countries where rather than allow the conversation you know and I mean the

22:01

conversation rather than allow the conversation you know let's talk about um what the world should look like they

22:08

want to repress the conversation so you know you started talking about people in the advanced uh States you know in the

22:14

North Atlantic states they're feeling demoralized around the question of of Israel's genocidal War um you know you

22:21

began to talk about that well let's think about that for a minute um these are you know an entire new generation of

22:27

people who feel completely dispirited by the fact that their ruling Elites have

22:32

no idea why they're even supporting Israel they have no idea they have no way to have the conversation and because

22:38

they don't want to have the conversation they say oh you are all agents of Russia or you paid by the Chinese um or we're

22:45

going to send the police in to smash you I mean those pictures from Italy of the police heavily armed police they look

22:52

like RoboCop smashing high school students who are Marching to end the genocide in Gaza

22:59

that r that that video itself which you know traveled on Instagram and Tik Tok

23:05

and so on that video itself isn't is is a is a definition of the decadence of

23:11

the ruling class it's decadent because it has no project merely the desire to

23:17

keep ruling and that's not enough yeah I actually want to quote one of your recent pieces in Globe Trotter you write

23:24

what is so particularly bewildering is that large sections of the population and the countries of the north want an

23:29

immediate ceasefire and yet their leaders disregard their opinions and you point to this as a evidence of a failure

23:38

of leadership in the global North which goes along with everything you're saying I think that there's a new generation of

23:44

people who recognize that their governments are not Democratic especially now you've got this like Tick

23:50

Tock ban uh coming um but you know I want to I want to I want you to

23:55

elaborate a bit on what you started to allude to here and that is the the feeling of like helplessness around Gaza

24:02

you know and I guess maybe here I'm asking you for a bit of a pep talk VJ but I can't think of anybody better position than you to give a good pep

24:08

talk um for anybody who's watching who has not seen VJ speak live uh you always

24:14

have a way of riling up a crowd if I'm in it I always get riled up myself so

24:19

you know I think that it feels right now and I'm not just speaking for myself here because I know I'm speaking to a

24:25

way that many people feel in this moment it feels like were losing Gaza like Israel might just get away with it all

24:33

like they might really just carry out their genocide and we can't do anything to stop it um and you know I guess and

24:42

this is a big question I don't know if you have the answer to it but any words of wisdom help I mean what do we do in A

24:48

Moment Like This how do we prevent more importantly how do we prevent those who do care from becoming helpless and

24:56

hopeless and just kind of you know throwing their hands up and saying I there's nothing I can do I give up um

25:02

because right now it really does it feels like Gaza is being lost and I don't say that to like offend anyone or

25:10

take away from the fact that there are people every single day resisting and fighting and

25:17

surviving um it's just a matter of like what we're seeing is so incredibly devastating and soul crushing and and it

25:25

really makes it difficult to see any sort of light at the end of the tunnel right now well let's start by saying

25:32

that the Palestinians have faced things like this for very long time I mean after all um we generally start in 1948

25:40

at the nakba 750,000 people expelled from their homes but you could even start a decade

25:47

earlier um in the 1930s when the migration of European Jews began in

25:54

large numbers into Palestine and was bewildering because the pales inan Christians Palestinian Muslims

26:00

Palestinian Jews lived side by side and I think people were bewildered you know why are these people coming from Europe

26:07

uh running from a European problem European anti-Semitism and you know trying to solve a European um racist

26:15

problem on our backs I mean this has been going for a very long time and bewilderingly because um the

26:22

Palestinians by themselves and I mean Palestinian Christians Palestinian Muslims and pales Ian Jews were not

26:29

responsible for this problem it was dumped on them by British imperialism and by Zionism this has been going for a

26:36

very long time at Great cost great suffering um you know as I said 1948 the

26:41

suffering was extreme uh and hideous you know and and the memories of that are

26:46

live vital memories you know the very fact that Palestinian families continue

26:52

to carry the keys to their homes from which their ancestors um were expelled

26:57

is is compelling people refusing to take citizenship in neighboring countries

27:02

because they have a right to return UN resolution 194 I mean this has been a

27:07

long struggle in Gaza itself um from roughly 2000 you know or maybe yeah the

27:14

second in Father for 24 years the people of Gaza have been pummeled by the

27:21

Israelis and you know people have a misread of Gaza Gaza between Wars

27:26

reconstructs I mean there's there are MS in Gaza for God's sake you know there were universities in Gaza um there were

27:33

middle class housing in Gaza apartment buildings in Gaza Gaza isn't a refugee

27:39

camp when people say you know it's the largest concentration camp or you know open a prison and so on it's not

27:45

entirely true there were people who built quite rich and productive lives in

27:50

Gaza you know it wasn't just a string of un tents it's a very great illusion

27:55

actually what the Israelis keep destroying is what the Palestinians keep building

28:01

it's not that the Palestinians have been living in bunkers waiting for bombing they built beautiful buildings they

28:07

built a beautiful Port there were fishing boats and so on routinely the Israelis have come in and destroyed all

28:13

that infrastructure built with great um you know Sweat and Tears by the Palestinian people so now having said

28:21

all that R let's get right to it I mean firstly none of the global North Wars

28:27

since you know I don't know when maybe the Korean War none of the global North Wars have been won the United States for

28:35

instance and its NATO Pals were defeated by the Taliban in Afghanistan they lost

28:41

the war in Iraq they were not able to overthrow the government of Bashar Al Assad they in fact lost the war in Libya

28:48

because they didn't attain any wars they just destroyed the country um they haven't won a war you know I mean Iran

28:55

Still Standing Yemen still standing which war have you won you know you overthrow governments they overthrow the

29:03

government of Salvador aende not far from where I'm sitting in Santiago but now you have a great you know admirer of

29:10

Salvador yende in the presidency now he may not be a big leftist person or anything but the left hasn't vanished

29:17

the Communist party is the largest political party in Chile uh we're going to keep coming back you can't win face

29:24

it I think that's important the Israelis went into G I think with very poor um

29:30

you know understanding of what they were going to do okay phase one of the war destroy the infrastructure check they

29:37

succeeded they destroyed everything they destroyed bakeries they destroyed fishing boats hence now near famine

29:43

conditions they in fact it's not just Israelis are not allowing Aid in they've systematically destroyed the ability of

29:51

the people of Gaza the Palestinians to produce food systematically so that now people are eating grass um in Gaza so

29:59

phase one destroy infrastructure check phase two enter Gaza with the Israeli

30:06

Army and start to occupy Gaza wait a minute this wasn't going so well the

30:12

resistance fought back against the Israeli troops phase three Israel pulls

30:18

back to the perimeter come in during the day conduct raids and go back to the perimeter that's where the Israeli

30:25

military is at now they're still at Phase One Contin to bomb and then they're at phase three phase two is gone

30:31

they're not trying to enter in with massive troop deployments because however depleted that resistance you

30:37

know some elderly gent with a pop gun is firing at the soldiers you know they

30:43

just are not going to permit um the Israelis easy access so the fight is still going on inside Gaza Against All

30:50

Odds you know I mean I I find it remarkable that the forces of Islamic

30:55

Jihad and Hamas and others are able to regroup and continue to attack Israelis

31:00

as they enter um so they are not in phase two anymore and I think that's significant you know now what does it

31:06

mean for the Israelis to win in Gaza for them to win in Gaza and they've said it you know it was part of the South

31:13

African complaint to the international court of justice that long section of statements made by Israeli they want to

31:20

remove the Palestinians into Egypt that's what they want to do they're sort of bulldozing from Gaza City South

31:27

across Wadi Gaza to through can Yunis through Rafa right to Sinai send them to

31:35

Sinai but the Palestinians are not moving this bombing in Rafa is going to be instructive when they start bombing

31:42

in Rafa what will happen will the Palestinians cross into Sinai you know I have friends who are sitting in Rafa

31:48

waiting for what's happening and they all say we're not leaving because if we leave we'll never be allowed to come

31:54

back in so we'd rather die here than cross cross into Egypt lots of people

31:59

have that conversation every day you know do we go or do we stay and many are saying we're going to stay because we

32:06

cannot afford to leave the Israelis don't have a way to win this you know they have a way to kill very many more

32:12

people but the more people they kill and the longer this takes the more

32:18

delegitimized Israel becomes in the eyes of the world population and the entire

32:23

decadent ruling Elite of the Israeli government will no longer be able to

32:28

travel overseas because wherever they go they will be haunted by these young

32:34

protesters and by lawyers who will try to arrest them based on the principle of

32:39

universal jurisdiction you know what applied to austo Pinette the dictator of

32:44

Chile where he was haunted during his foreign visits particularly to England and then arrested thanks to Bol bomu

32:52

garon's the judge in Spain Bartholomew garon's warrant he was arrested um that

32:58

fear will be there among High officials of the Israeli government wherever they go Isaac Herzog if you arrive in bot

33:07

Gustavo Pro will come to the airport and personally arrest you you know Nal pandor foreign minister of sad Africa

33:14

said any South African citizen Who has fought in the Israeli army during this

33:20

war if they return to South Africa they will be arrested she has already gone on the record to say that these people will

33:27

not sleep a night in peace from now on we will haunt them every day and wherever they are so I don't think this

33:34

is a period of demoralization or dispiriting firstly we cannot be more

33:40

demoralized than the Palestinians who are not demoralized they continue to fight against this occupation they are

33:46

not letting go they are not blinking you know the bulk of people are saying we're going to stand and we're going to fight

33:52

and then all those that entire generation that's been radicalized coming on the streets you know of of New

33:59

York of London whatever you can't underestimate the power of young people

34:05

who have not been in protest before coming out on something like this you know every day coming for some protest

34:11

to the other shutting down roads this has an immense radicalizing impact and the ruling class knows this that's why

34:18

they're trembling at it they want to shut it down um you know this protest movement is significant and when this

34:26

conflict starts to come to an end directly and then these officials travel these same young people are going to go

34:32

and surround the hotel they're going to surround the speaking venue they're going to continue to disrupt speeches

34:39

made by Israeli High officials nobody's going to leave them in peace they will never have peace in their

34:46

life I mean that's exactly what I needed to hear VJ um because that you know I I

34:52

don't I don't want to lose hope and I think that you know we also have to look at history I mean there's in the sense

34:58

that Liberation costs it t it takes a lot of sacrifice and it generally does

35:03

cost a lot of lives um and before I get to like the next thing I really W to

35:10

sort of uh segue into here I also think that what you're talking about is so important in terms of the sort of like

35:16

emerging movements even in the global North I mean when we and of course in the global South because when we think

35:22

about what's happening right now it's really drawn A Line in the Sand and I think it's shown the absolute relevance

35:28

of a lot of these like International and even local NGO type organizations or institutions that run

35:34

around being like we can put Band-Aids on imperialism like we can mediate between these people negotiate between

35:41

these people or we can set up some you know shelter so that a few kids can get

35:47

blankets or you know like there's so much of this that's been happening for so long across the region uh in the

35:53

Middle East across Latin America across Asia where it's like an entire peace industry if you will and it's never been

36:00

more irrelevant and pathetic to watch than now especially as I see I'm not

36:06

going to name names but I see even a lot of people here in Lebanon who haven't said a word about the genocide literally

36:12

happening next door but they're still involved with these weird like like liberal NOS that help women and help

36:21

lgbtq rights and have nothing to say about South Lebanon getting bombed uh

36:26

but all that's to say that's just like all that entire industry has been demonstrated to be fake and I use that

36:32

as a segue to talk about something else that the report delves a little bit into and that is the idea of these emerging

36:39

sort of global South organizations or the possibilities for them uh in this

36:45

moment as we see this kind of you know gradual collapse of leadership in the

36:50

global North and of Institutions the uselessness of this like peace NGO

36:56

industry that's never actually given us anything meanwhile you see the rise of

37:02

popular movements across the world you know a lot of them coming around the issue of Palestine and I even want to

37:07

draw into that popular movements in the region I mean and certain countries when you look at the poorest country in the

37:13

region like Yemen I mean Yemen has been such a huge player in in terms of

37:19

actually imposing material consequences on Israel as well as these various armed

37:24

groups across the region that are part of the you know the quote unquote resistance axis so all that you know is

37:30

to ask you about you know what do you have to say about the idea or potential

37:35

in A Moment Like This for Global South organizations and what they could be capable of um as we head into this

37:43

really dangerous decadent you know world of hyper imperialism yeah firstly I must say you

37:49

do the NGO accent excellently um I mean that itself is is yeah no that that's

37:55

that's interesting um viously you know you recognize that there are many kinds

38:02

of Nos and many kinds of people operating I mean just not that I want to

38:07

defend them but I do want to um dip my hat to the Norwegian Refugee Council

38:13

which operating in Gaza has been really you know picked up a lot of the slack um

38:18

when the UN has been attacked and and that has actually had an impact um even within Norway Norway's attitude as a

38:25

country uh regarding this conflict I think is shaped by the fact that the NRC

38:31

has been so active in the front lines um inside Gaza but you're absolutely correct there is a kind of bankruptcy of

38:39

the NGO which tries to be non-political and believes that war is political well

38:44

certainly war is political but war is also inhuman and therefore because it's inhuman and it's it's something to do

38:51

with Humanity um you know a nonprofit organization or non-government organization must be be obliged to have

38:58

an opinion about inhumanity I think it's impossible to remain silent you see part

39:04

of the problem we have facing is we are at a time and and this issue in Ukraine

39:10

and Gaza have accelerated it we are at a time when these Global South blocks or

39:16

you know not blocks these these countries or these platforms and so on are trying to find their voice and you

39:22

know for a long time there was a lack of confidence just to use that word there was a lack of confidence like could you

39:29

really speak out and frontally challenge the the global North could could it be

39:34

possible and most countries just didn't have the confidence you know they felt that if they would do so and quite

39:40

rightly they felt this if they would do so they'd get sanction and I don't just mean like the harsh unilateral coercive

39:47

sanctions but they' face a sanction from the international monetary fund which would come in and say look you know

39:52

we're not sure about your economic um your your situation you know we may not

39:58

uh uh give you a report that allows you to get financing uh to cover your

40:03

balance of payments and so on that that stuff was was really serious for countries and they felt then that

40:10

Disobedience uh had came at a price and the price was too severe so for a long period of time from the collapse of the

40:17

Soviet Union onward most of the countries of the emerging Global South held their peace you know you know when

40:24

you talk privately to the heads of governments they would say things which they could never say in public I mean I

40:29

don't want to even name names because why should I speak on their behalf but I've visited several people used to be

40:36

marxists um then became quote unquote liberals became heads of government in

40:41

countries I'm talking about two in particular on the African continent I knew know them very well they were heads

40:47

of government one in the 1990s one in the 2000s and when you go see them

40:53

privately they would fulminate against imperialism even use the word Imperialism you know pretty harsh

40:58

against Washington the Washington consensus all of that but then they would go out in public and say well you

41:04

know we are trying our best to get our finances in order um we're trying to be prudent with the way that we spend we're

41:11

not going to overspend in health and education we want to make sure that our currency is not out of blah blah blah

41:18

things that I know they didn't believe in because there was no space of maneuver you know people don't

41:24

understand what it means to have no space of man maneuver you know they literally had no space to maneuver if

41:30

they went out of that space and challenged the West frontally they would get sanction they'd be gone um you know

41:37

they'd be out of office in a day they wouldn't last so it was a compromise they compromised and tried to do a few

41:43

Social Democratic things whatever I'm not justifying them I'm merely saying that was a period in world history but

41:50

now the the situation is opened up because countries realized like the country of Namibia which has been forth

41:57

right in its criticism of of Germany forthright in its criticism of um the

42:02

NATO war in Ukraine the situation Gaza see Namibia used to be completely under

42:08

the grip of the international monetary fund but now it has choices R and that changes the situation now Namibia can

42:16

borrow from The People's Bank of China or the new development bank or the bricks Bank it can come to a country

42:22

like India and seek concessionary financing it can look for investment from Indonesia from the Gulf Arab states

42:30

and so on they don't really need Washington or they are not under the grip of Washington like they used to be

42:36

so this has increased the space of maneuver so now the the people in

42:41

government in these countries can say things including the government of South Africa they can be braver of course the

42:47

US government tries to slap sanctions they just got a bill in Congress against South Africa it's a ridiculous bill I

42:54

don't think it'll go anywhere it's not going to advance but it's a it's a gesture to tell the South Africans you

42:59

know we're going to you know we'll discipline you not going to do it they don't feel disciplined by you they have

43:05

options of going elsewhere for concessionary financing and so on that has created the possibility for

43:11

confidence that itself doesn't create confidence now we'll see R if the

43:16

confidence grows if these countries or these new platforms you know the bricks

43:21

as one if they'll be able to act on the basis of this confidence we see this with China you know you would not be um

43:30

a human being today if you were not frustrated with the Chinese why aren't they doing more you know why aren't the

43:35

Chinese sending um you know big you know huge cargo vessels of food into the

43:41

Eastern Mediterranean you know why are you waiting for the Yanks to build some sort of temporary Pier just bring a

43:48

pontoon boat filled with supplies and Supply the people of Gaza well in fact

43:53

the Chinese are cautious they've made very strong statements against occupation over the last period they've

43:59

condemned this war and so on but people may not know this the Lebanese know this that the United States has a flotilla of

44:07

military vessels sitting in the Eastern Mediterranean effectively cordoning out

44:13

um the Waters of Lebanon protecting Israel and the Waters of Gaza cordoned

44:19

by the US military so the the there's no way that Chinese are going to confront um the United States by sending ships

44:26

into that part of the region they don't yet have that confidence even to send

44:32

large uh Convoy of food and you know electrical equipment to Cuba which could

44:37

use it you know and and the port is open why why isn't this happening because we have the social basis of confidence is

44:45

now there even the confidence is there people are saying things but when will they do things and that's the next phase

44:52

we're not there yet you know we're not at the phase yet where we're going to see um people break through the Cordon

44:59

of imperialism and exert themselves and say we don't we don't care what can you do you're going to shoot down a ship

45:06

full of food I don't think so that confidence has not attained that level but the door is opening we're going

45:13

towards that and I don't know when it's going to happen I hope it accelerates but it's not happening fast

45:20

enough yeah you know and I also think we shouldn't underestimate the power of the

45:25

images we're seeing in the that you know yes it's Israel doing it to Gaza but Israel is also setting some

45:33

very horrifying presidents for what the global North has now demonstrated they

45:39

find acceptable behavior if you enjoyed this episode and want to hear the rest you can access it by becoming a

45:45

breakthrough news member at patreon.com breakthrough

45:52

news