Palestine Talks | Dr. Mads Gilbert on Israel’s “systematic strategy” to destroy Palestinians
Palestine Talks | Dr. Mads Gilbert on Israel’s “systematic strategy” to destroy Palestinians - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fzBf7Omllk&t=808s
Transcript
Introduction and Overview of the Palestinian Struggle and Israeli Occupation
0:00
hi Dr gilbertt thank you so much for sitting here with trt today I'd like to
0:05
cover a few things with you today uh regarding your experience your long-standing experience in Gaza um your
0:11
views as you've already articulated to some extent in the um Independent Media
0:17
about Western media and its preoccupation as I believe you call it uh with uh covering certain aspects of
0:25
gaza's medical facilities and finally uh your view on the role of Palestinian civilians
0:31
in uh sustaining human life so um you've been going to the
0:37
occupi territories since at least the late 80s and I'm wondering if you can shed light on how the current situation
0:44
in Gaza is particularly different from perhaps anything you've seen asalam
0:50
alikum Paul thank you for having me uh yeah where should we start um I think
0:56
for anyone who knows the Palestinian struggle and the brutality of the Israeli occupation of
1:04
Palestine um there is not much new to the way they
1:10
are exercising their power and their oppression and their brutality but the
1:16
magnitude of the attacks and the extent of the destruction of Gaza and the
1:21
killing of course has never been seen before and then we're not talking about
1:27
only Palestine and the occupation Army of the Israeli state but in in world
1:36
history for the last century I don't think there has been any military attack
1:43
on another people with such a brutal
1:48
systematic viciousness and brutality the number of civilians killed
1:56
is is shocking the number of children killed is beyond shocking it's probably around
2:04
12,000 Palestinian children and children by definition are young people from zero
2:10
up to 18 years uh this number of killed children is surmounting
2:17
anything that the occupation forces have done before so there is a a shift
2:23
towards much more killing of civilians although they have always been targeting
2:30
civilians when they attack Gaza and also the West Bank the extent of destruction
2:36
of the society is beyond anything we have seen before they are completely
2:42
shattering the whole civilian Palestinian Society in Northern Gaza in particular I mean schools universities
2:50
water pipelines sewage systems homes not to forget hospitals
2:56
primary healthcare clinics ambulances we've seen all these things being TG T it before but never to the extent now
3:03
now Northern Gaza looks like a desert or like Hiroshima and uh also racism the overt
Destruction of Gaza's Civilian Infrastructure, Medical System
3:12
racism in the arguments for the attacks on Gaza and the West Bank I don't think
3:19
we have heard that before just two days ago uh the keset all the Jewish members
3:26
of the ceset voted against a State solution basically they voted against
3:33
any Solution on how to solve this occupation because this is not a
3:39
difficult conflict everybody used to say oh such a difficult conflict I I can't
3:44
make a stand this is a difficult occupation and occupations are illegal
3:50
doctor you've talked about how before October 7 the medical system within Gaza
3:56
was already severely compromised by Israel I'm wondering if you can uh speak to when you notice that was that uh
4:04
before or after the blockade for example and whether you think governments
4:11
internationally um when you first noticed that were doing enough to address you that that situation you know
4:20
the Palestinian people as I know them and I I had my first uh medical travel
4:26
to work with the Palestinian people in 1981 when I went as a young resident of
4:31
anesthesiology which is my specialty and emergency medicine I went to Beirut because this Reales were bombing Beirut
4:39
because at that time in 1981 the PLO and fata which was the armed wing of the PLO
4:45
the Palestinian Liberation Organization they were the ones who were waging the armed struggle against the occupation of
4:53
Palestine and uh just as a footnote uh your viewers should not forget that any
4:59
any occupied people have the legal right to fight occupation with arms the armed
Legal Rights and Historical Resistance
5:07
struggle against occupation is not terrorism it is Liberation and
5:14
Liberation is legal that's how we got rid of a colonization of the global
5:19
south of course that armed struggle has to take place within the framework of
5:24
international law protecting hospitals protecting children and women and civilians not attacking schools all of
5:32
these laws that we have in the Geneva Convention the hog convention and so on but within that framework Every Nation
5:39
who is occupied by another nation has the right to fight occupation and the
5:44
last one to say this was the spokesperson for the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the UN which was quite a big
5:53
thing it was two days ago and he really put the you know the right thing on the
5:59
right place he said what's going on in Gaza it's not terrorism and between the lines he
6:06
actually said that terrorism is what the Israeli occupation Army is
6:12
perpetrating so what the Palestinians have been struggling with through all
6:18
these years since 48 is to find a strategy and and and a way out of this
6:26
unwanted unwelcomed division of their land in 48 and then the unwanted and
6:32
unwelcomed expansion brutal expansion of the settler Colonial Israeli project
6:40
which is embedded in the Zionist political movement that they want to occupy and take all Palestine from The
6:47
River To The Sea that's the Israeli flag the two blue lines it's from the river to the Mediterranean you know and
6:54
between there you have the the the a Israel the state of Israel so what I saw saw in beut in 1981 and 82 were two
7:02
things number one the Israeli Army tried to kill the leadership of PLO and F
Dr. Gilbert's Personal Experiences in Lebanon and Gaza
7:10
because at that time that was Hamas that was the armed resistance against the
7:17
occupation and the colonization so they bombed fakan in 81 we went down with the team it didn't take so long with the
7:24
bombing so we worked there for for a short while in a refugee camp but then in 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon went all
7:33
the way up to West beut besieged West bayut as they have been doing with gasa
7:38
for the last 16 years they cut the water they cut the fuel they cut the medical supplies they cut the Food Supplies as
7:46
they are doing with Gaza and they bombed West beut relentlessly night and day for
7:52
the whole summer of 1982 in order to achieve two things to kill the
7:57
leadership of the Armed resist as they are doing in Gaza now they called them terrorists Abu Amar yasat
8:06
was a terrorist abush shahad was a terrorist by definition of the US and
8:11
the Israelis and they wanted to to reduce or to quell or to strangulate the will of
8:19
resistance of the Palestinian people because remember in Lebanon there are
8:24
hundreds of thousands if not millions of Palestinian refugees from 48 who have
8:30
the right to return they are living in a very very difficult situation in the camps in Rashid in Sabra and shatila and
8:37
B rash and so on all over Lebanon and they resist so in 82 I saw two important
8:44
things and I felt it and I smelt it and I I touched it the brutality of the
8:50
Israeli attacks on civilians we were waiting in blood I was for the first time in my life lifting away amputated
8:57
arms and legs from Young Palestinians and Lebanese and they showed no mercy
9:03
they bombed ambulances they bombed hospitals they bombed apartment buildings they bombed the water pipeline
9:09
the sewage system everything in the civilian society that upholds life and I
9:15
was shocked I came from Norway I was pretty naive I'm politically very active but at the same time I thought there
9:21
were Rules of Engagement not at all not for the Israelis supported by the US and
9:27
Pentagon and then I saw the Palestinian Healthcare System and the doctors and the nurses and Dr fat Arafat who at that
9:34
time the brother of yaser who was then the leader of the Palestine red crescent
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Society Halal who was an informal minister of health and I was extremely
9:45
impressed by the way they improvised found Solutions we made a makeshift
9:50
field Hospital in an underground Garage in the ne East School of Theology a
9:55
Catholic school and we worked there together night and day to SA lives so going from 82 and my experience then
10:02
with the Palestinians and the healthcare to Gaza and to the West Bank it's important to remember that the
10:08
Palestinian people has always been the most educated people in the Middle East a very thirsty for knowledge very
Systematic Demolition of Palestinian Healthcare
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hardworking young students uh each family takes great pride in their kids
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having the best marks and they have National tests you know and 100 point if you score 98 95 97 M family is very
10:30
proud you know in Gaza it's actually prohibited to have weddings parties
10:38
celebrations I think it is the week before National tests isn't that
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beautiful because the students should have quiet should not be noise and you know shooting in the air because they
10:49
concentrate for their National exams so the Palestinian people has always been very academic very well educated
10:56
knowledgeable about philosophy Rel medicine whatever technology and they've
11:01
built their universities and often when I lecture about Gaza in the United States I I I
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always ask do you know are there universities in Gaza and everybody goes no no no they don't have universities do
11:15
they you know they have 10 so while you've seen so much in your time in the
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occupied Palestinian territories when do you feel that a doctor at what moment do you feel that a
11:28
doctor knows that they have to reach out to the International Community and say we need
11:36
people we need governments we need people of conscience to intervene here
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notwithstanding all their training and all their capability would you say there's a moment when a doctor
11:47
recognizes that we can't do it you mean a Palestinian doctor or any doctor any
11:54
Doctor Who is in the territory it's a good question I think I think the the the Palestinians would would actually
12:01
answer you by saying we want to manage ourselves you know we're we're proud
12:07
people we're building a good health care system for for our Palestinian fellow
12:12
women and men and children we don't want to be dependent we're not a beggar a
12:18
begging Society we're independent and proud and we know our medical stuff and we know how to run it but when you have
12:25
an occupier who systematically kills your doctors nurses and paramedics and
12:30
who systematically bomb your hospital of course there is a time when you have to say hello world hello world can you
12:37
please stop these people from killing our medical staff and destroying our hospitals which should be protest
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protected according to your laws of course there is a moment for that and they do it in two in
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1981 fat arat issued an appeal to uh European and Western doctors to come to
12:58
beay rout to assist them that appeal made us in Norway construct the first
13:05
emergency surgical team that I was on so that appeal has been coming again and
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again and again from Palestinian healthc care uh authorities so I think the
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moment is is uh you know overripe and
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has been so for many years and the Palestinians are indeed appealing again
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and again and again to the International Community lift The Siege stop the
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attacks on Healthcare improve the living conditions because at the end of the day
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your health and my health is not first and foremost depending on a fancy
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ambulance helicopter like I work in or a big university hospital with flashing operating rooms and open heart surgery
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and all that public health depends on what we have here clean water food
14:00
enough to eat safety that we are not attacked somebody comes there and shoot
14:05
us a place to live work paid and safe work education and then comes healthc
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care and the occupation of Palestine and the living conditions for
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the people in the diaspora the refugees is first and foremost not characterized
14:24
by the lack of fancy ambulance helicopters they know the rule of conduct they know international law if
14:31
the hospitals had been military command centers I don't think they would have allowed it full stop so I haven't seen
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it show me the evidence and finally the Israeli occupation Army invaded shifa
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after having strangulated bombed shelled killed people inside and what did they
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find nothing they made fools of themselves now everybody says oh we cannot uh you know the Palestinian
14:56
Society ask for BDS boycot I investment sanctions and then all the Western Society said no no no we can't do that
15:02
with Israel well they did with Russia immediately after the invasion of of ukina but what people forget is that
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Israel the occupier had been imposing economical sanctions on Palestine for
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many many years and in 2006 after the election you know they immediately
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closed off the economical ties and the transfer of money and taxes and tolls
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and everything to to the West Bank and they besieged Gaza can you think of any
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more brutal BDS than the siege of Gaza so so actually these fundamental things
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water food uh income work housing education is denied the people of
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Palestine by the occupiers so we cannot solve that only by making more
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Healthcare you know so so I'd just like to make that point first because I'm sort of a a hospital specialist but then
16:02
on the other hand of course what we have seen uh over the years this systematic
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very systematic strategy from the Israeli occupation forces to uh demolish Palestinian proper Healthcare
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and that has been at a level unseen before during this four months and uh
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and this uh last uh uh who report shows from each of the municipalities you know
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there are five municipalities in Gaza it's arafa canun deala Gaza City and
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North Gaza and here you see the number of hospitals that have been attacked and destroyed and out of 34 hospitals I
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believe now it's six or eight that are partially operating imagine imagine a
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state demolishing uh 75% of the hospitals in a
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neighboring country without any repercussions or reactions from the
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International Community why is Israel having this sacred position that they
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cannot be blocked or punished like they are you know eagerly punishing Russia
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very quickly with sanctions and political uh you know punishment yes
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that's a very good point that there's so many hospitals that Israel's already destroyed but as I believe you've
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remarked before there's this I think you use the word preoccupation with alifa and um how it's a distraction and
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I wonder if you can elaborate on that whether you see it as an example of something bigger that the Western media
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is is trying to do deliberately you know in a way the
17:47
Western power elite I'm not talking about the people of the West because the people of the West in Canada and United
Western Media's Distraction Tactics & Palestinian Solidarity
17:54
States in Europe in Norway they have been ananymous ly the majority standing
18:00
up and saying we support Palestine but the governments have been very slow to recognize that they are pretty scared
18:06
now because the street is so powerful and and the shout from the streets of all the capitals of all the cities all
18:13
over the Western world is shouting you know impose sanctions uh Stop The
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Killing support Palestine but the the Western Powers have always been looking for scapegoats finding excuses to uh
18:28
support the Israeli attacks on Palestinians you know one thing is to label them terrorists and that's like
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the thief crying shouting stop the thief because the real terrorist in this
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scenario is the state of Israel Israel is perpetrating State terrorism by
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definition using arms military powers to intimidate and scare the civilian
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population that's the definition of terrorism who's doing that Israel over and over and over again
18:59
so the Western uh Powers the governments Tred to find excuses you know labeling
19:04
people and then oh maybe this hospital this shifa hospital is a military
19:09
command center so then it's okay to bomb it number one it's not okay to bomb a
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mixed civilian and Military Target Geneva Convention number four there are
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uh three important uh principles it's
19:27
proportionality you should use the same level of weaponry and power against your enemy as the enem is using against you I
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mean that's that's every day if you're going to punish your child and you're an adult you can't take a bat and start
19:41
beating the child you have to you maybe hold him by the arm and say you can't do this so that's
19:46
proportionality then it is uh distinction which means that the armed uh parties have to make a clear
19:54
distinction between civilian and Military targets like you can you can't bomb a school you can bomb a military
20:01
Air Force Base distinction and then the important principle of
20:08
precaution which means that if you have a Target which you think is military but
20:13
it is also possibly a civilian Target like a church or a mosque and there are
20:19
500 refugees in the church or in the mosque and there are may be two armed Fighters you cannot bomb that mosque
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just because you want to kill those to Fighters because the civilian protection
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takes priority over the military gain so even if there should be some fighters in
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shifa which I've never seen they still don't have legal arguments to buom shifa
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that's one thing and number two we have heard these allegations for years and
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years and years and years I heard it first time in 2006 we heard it in 2009
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and 12 this Israelis said we're going to bomb shifa because it's a military command center we were even asked to
21:03
leave by our Minister of Foreign Affairs because the Israeli authorities had
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contacted the norian Minister of Foreign Affairs and said you have to get your two doctors out of chifa why did they
21:14
want to get us out of shifa because they didn't want us to report because we reported we were
21:21
treating patience together with our Palestinian colleagues and leaders but
21:27
we were also reporting we gave interviews to anyone who wanted to listen and we could give the numbers I
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remember I had this as my notepad so I had the numbers of killed and injured and children and women and everything
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from hour to hour so we were important sources of information about what is it
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that's really going on in shifa and in Gaza they wanted us out for that reason they made the excuse that we're going to
21:49
bomb it because it's a military command center we refused we stayed they didn't bom and now it comes up again the same
21:57
allegations 16 years after they first claimed that chifa was a military
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command center where is the proof where is the evidence they've had 16 years
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with all their sophisticated intelligence and x-raying and everything they never showed any proof they made a
22:16
tunnel when they were in Gaza during the intifada and another practical thing is
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that there is almost no modern hospital in this world that doesn't have a syst
22:28
of tunnels underneath because it's for Logistics it's all for for the technical support it's for the you know the
22:34
generators maybe or the batteries for the unbreakable power supply it's for the laundry and the kitchen and so on
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and so forth and to transport patients between the different departments and blocks so that's nothing new that there
22:47
are tunnels under hospitals and the third Point I've never seen it I've been there uh for the better part of of 20
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years I've been working there uh during times of bumping and in between remember there are no borders around
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Gaza Israel which is not very known Israel has no internationally recognized
23:07
borders if you discuss with somebody who's Pro Israeli give them give them a piece of paper and a pencil and ask them
23:14
to draw the borders of Israel and Gaza they don't exist because they're pushing them all the time so when these 2.2
23:22
million people are incarcerated they tried the civilian you know protest to go to the fence
23:28
every Friday for one and a half year what happened they killed uh hundreds by
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shooting them and they wounded tens of thousands mainly by shooting in the
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extremities to make them you know handicapped so why would not these
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people at one point break out of the ghetto I don't call it a prison because in prison you have convicted people and
23:53
you cannot convict 2.2 million Palestinians of being Palestinians and one thing I before we wrap up I want
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to ask you without of course romanticizing it because of um what we're seeing is so horrific um there
Universal Lessons from Palestinian Struggle
24:09
seems to be among the civilian population in Gaza uh this kind of like
24:15
exceptional selfishness to help the medical staff and the rescue team that I personally
24:23
have never seen before and I'm not sure if that's the right word selfishness but it's a kind of remarkable compassion
24:29
that I've not seen and courage and strength and I'm wondering in your experience what do you think accounts
24:35
for that and I feel that it um as a western person it forces me to
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interrogate myself you know because coming from a culture the west where um
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there's so much of a championing of individualism uh whereas you see that which is a total
24:52
opposite so I'm just wondering what do you feel accounts for that kind of um selflessness and encourage that's so
24:59
remarkable I'm so happy for that question Paul and and I've I've been asking myself the same having having
25:05
state so much together with the Palestinians and in particular in Gaza over the last uh uh 20 years and I don't
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only go there when it's bombing I I go two three times a year uh I teach uh at
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the University I do research together with my fellow Palestinians I work with development of healthcare under the
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leadership of the Palestinian Healthcare leaders like Dr yusf abish the brilliant minist of health and and every time we
25:32
Face a problem there is always a solution around the corner in
25:38
Gaza every time there is some sort of hardship there is always some helping
25:43
hands as you say I am a hopeless romantic so I like to think that this is
25:50
part of our Universal human quality it is to come to the assistance of the
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other when the other is for some reason helpless incapacitated have a problem is
26:03
poor lacks food uh or or needs to be lifted up and cared
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for but again the political forces that wants to divide us through racism and
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say that oh you're Brown and I'm white I'm not going to touch you or you're yellow and I'm white and you can be poor
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and I can be rich these political forces are trying to divide us and trying to
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explore uh uh to exploit to exploit this uh quality of human being of the
26:34
existence into some sort of profit but at the core I think all of us have this
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this internal uh spine of dignity and
26:46
solidarity with others I want to think that I want to believe that and I want
26:51
to promote that and I want to be a person like that myself with a spine of
26:56
dignity and solid ity and love for others racism apartheid occupation are
Dr. Gilbert's Dedication to the Cause & Conclusion
27:03
exactly the opposite it is to disregard the value of human life now for the Palestinian people I
27:11
think it is a virtue to be selfless to be supportive of the other and they have
27:18
a name for it in Arabic it's called sumud and sumud actually is an Arab word
27:25
meaning steadfastness and this steadfastness is part of
27:32
Palestinian culture there is no doubt and there is no doubt that both in the West Bank and in Gaza and in the the
27:38
camps around the world when you meet Palestinian people they're all in a way
27:44
filled with a sense of being in this world also not just for yourself but for
27:52
the other and you see it during times of hardship and bombing and I I totally
27:57
agree when you look at the the the video clips from Gaza when you see a bombing
28:04
take place of course people try to to to find
28:09
cover but immediately when the bombing is is over you don't see people run away
28:14
you see them run into the smoke and they start digging with their hands immediately why do they dig with their
28:20
hands because Israel does not allow any fuel to come in so they can't use the cranes and the you know the machinery
28:28
but you see them digging anyway with and without their vests you see them lifting carefully the injured the dying the Dead
28:35
the martyrs into an ambulance or running them into a hospital
28:41
endless actions of compassion solidarity and sumud and this is also I think a lesson
28:50
to the world a message to the world a cry to the world we are maintaining our
28:56
dignity we we are not allowing ourselves to degenerate to the animals that they
29:03
are treating us like and not only are they treating like the animals like animals but they're even naming them as
29:09
animals the Palestinians resist and they stand tall in their
29:14
dignity and their Humanity with their sumud and it is as you say extraordinary
29:19
and we all should take a lesson from Gaza and from the West Bank we should
29:25
take a lesson from Dr Muhammad Al Ram from Dr Naf Karim from Dr Khal and from
29:31
all the other healthcare workers and the people and the volunteers and the ambulance paramedics because they are
29:38
actually telling us what it means to be human in times of the utter hardship
29:46
confronted with death confronted with starvation losing your child they stand
29:52
tall and they ask themselves when it's bombing how can I be of help for the other
29:58
so the Israeli occupation the Israeli attack has completely failed in trying to discourage or
30:08
demoralize the Palestinian people in Gaza and in the West Bank the more they're bombed the taller they stand the
30:15
more they are starved the more they show compassion for each other and even if
30:21
they're dropping leaflets and and and made up Arab newspapers or or news
30:26
leaflets saying that oh you have to attack Kamas they are responsible they cut through it because they are all part
30:33
of the resistance even if they're fata or their Hamas or their shihad or their socialists or Muslims or Christians this
30:40
is not a Muslim cause this is not a political cause this is a cause for
30:46
Humanity and the Israeli attacks on Gaza and in the West Bank these attacks are
30:52
attacks on all of us on a platform of dignity Humanity and Justice in this
30:58
world if we don't react now how is it going to look tomorrow who's next is it
31:04
turkey is it Lebanon is it Jordan is it Norway because if we let this lose now
31:12
might will Define right and right will not Define right and when we let might
31:19
Define right without stopping it we are going back to the law of the Jungle and I don't want to live in that world so we
31:25
should thank the Palestinian people people for their steadfastness their smood and their enormous courage and
31:34
bravery in standing up we all have a lot to learn from the Palestinian people in
31:39
Gaza and in the West Bank and my deepest respect and my thank goes out to
31:45
them I wish I could do more I wish I could be there I am refused I'm denied
31:51
access by the Israeli occupiers because I'm too dangerous I wish I could be there and do
31:57
more but I will promise like we all should promise ourselves we will do more
32:03
here we have to do more solidarity work we have to do do more to push our governments to St take a stand we have
32:11
to do more to have Financial economical blockade of of Israel and political
32:16
sanctions against Israel we have to have weapon embargo on Israel and you and me
32:21
and all of us who are only one we can stand together and be an army of solidarity for the Palestinian people
32:28
and at the end of the day that is a struggle for you and for me and for everyone and thank you so much thank
32:36
[Music]
32:42
you
