Video Infoblog: Queen Rania Al Abdullah of Jordan on "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" | full interview
Superb interview. The Queen is very well informed, eloquent, incisive, logical, brave, accurate and deep.
Transcript
0:00
your majesty thank you for making time for us thank you it's a pleasure to be here Jordan has two field hospitals
0:06
inside of Gaza Jordan is helping to get Aid into the strip the UN estimates that
0:12
at least 15,000 children have been killed since this War began in October what is the
0:19
impact in the region well look first of all um Gaza in the last 7 months has has
0:25
become unrecognizable uh cities have turned into Wasteland growing happy children have been reduced to skin and
0:32
bone 2.3 million people in a short in a small area have been going through hell
0:37
every single day 1.7 million of them have been displaced and not just once some of them several times and they're
0:44
currently living in conditions that are unimaginable in makeshift shelters and Tents on the street uh UNICEF was
0:50
hearing from teenage girls saying that they would rather be killed than live under these conditions and so many have
0:56
been killed almost 35,000 people 17 % of them women and children as you mentioned
1:03
almost 15,000 children Gaza has the highest unfortunately and sadly the
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highest uh cohort of child amputees and every couple of days we're losing children to starvation we in the Arab
1:16
world have been seeing this war live streamed every single day and it has become Central to our lives and it's
1:24
been quite devastating and the impact has been obviously people are so
1:29
traumatized by what they're seeing every day we were traumatized by October 7th but then this war we feel is not you
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know Israel is is saying that this war is a defensive War obviously was instigated by October 7th but the way
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it's being fought is not in defensive way you know 60% of homes have been uh
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destroyed 80% of schools and Health Care Centers have been destroyed are we to
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believe that there were Hamas operatives in each one of those you know so so you know the the impact has been very very
2:02
big on us and I think people I'm not sure if your viewers know this but people view the us as being party to
2:09
this war because you know Israeli officials say that without a US support they couldn't launch this war you know
2:15
you you turn off the tap and the weapons dry out so and so there's been anger in our part of the world not at just what
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what's happening but at the world's reaction when we see um these violations
2:27
human rights violations and International law violations and we're watching the world letting it happen
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when October 7th happened the world rightfully condemned it and took strong action and strong positions we are
2:39
outraged that this the same is not happening when when Palestinians are getting killed and so there is the sense
2:45
of the selective application of humanitarian law in a sense of unfairness a sense of Our Lives don't
2:51
matter as much and you know this is something I think that's creating a
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certainly causing uh a great loss of credibility to the US but also causing
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us to rethink our uh our view of the world order you know as as cruel and and
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and ugly as the war in Gaza is the state of our rules based World Order is looking exponentially worse people are
3:14
looking at Gaza as reflection of the rest of the world where you know the
3:20
rules don't matter where international law doesn't matter where un resolutions can be ignored and I think that that's a
3:26
very very dangerous uh precedent because actions like these they're not only a betrayal for the people of Gaza but
3:32
they're actually a betrayal of the safeguards that are meant to keep us all safe you said people back home see the
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United States as complicit in what's happening they see it as an enabler you
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know uh so clearly the US is the country that has most leverage over the us over
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Israel and um like I said you know it is the the biggest allly and biggest
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supporter and the Arab world is getting the rest of the world actually is getting mixed messages so on the one
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hand the US is demanding that more Aid rightfully go back into Gaza at the same
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time they're they're denying that the starvation is intentional on the one hand they are outraged by the uh attacks
4:14
on the a convoys but at the same time they're denying that Israel is violating
4:19
International humanitarian law there's an expression of concern over civilian deaths but at the same time there's a
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provision of offensive weapons uh to is Israel that are used against Palestinians so in a sense you know you
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when you try so hard to thread the needle you can risk dropping the ball you can risk letting your values and
4:40
principles unravel and and that has a a deep impact so for example even when the
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US allowed the UN Security Council resolution on the ceasefire to pass the next day there is announcement saying
4:52
that it's not it's not legally binding un resolutions are absolutely legally
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binding and these legal Frameworks are there to ensure that all countries adhere to a standard of conduct they're
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either applicable to everyone or they're not either everyone is accountable or no one is so the next time a country Breaks
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the Rules you know and the US comes and tries to apply more Authority those countries are going to say well you made
5:16
an exception here so why apply to us so I think people um you know we are seeing
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Israel falling short of a moral standard after moral stand legal standard after
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legal standard in the world is refusing to act so I think Gaza now is like a
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microcosm of our New World Disorder of the breakdown of international Norms of
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the return of Might is right and I think that's very dangerous not just for our
5:46
region but for the entire world well you know recently President Biden just about a month ago uh warned prime minister
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Netanyahu that US policy would change if Israel's behavior and conduct in this
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war didn't change do you believe the US is starting to use the leverage you say it has well look
6:05
there's definitely been a change in tone and language and you're right the president has been warning and has been
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trying very hard to persuade Netanyahu for example to not enter Rafa but we've seen time and again Israeli officials
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not heeding the warnings or counsel or advice of allies so I think it's time
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that the International Community including the US really used its political leverage to compel is Israel
6:28
to end the war and to let Aid in uh how and it's and it's by taking measures
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right so again it's by standing up for international law saying for example the building of illegal settlements is is
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wrong and it has to stop it's by saying that you know we are not going to provide you with offensive weapons it's
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by saying um we're not going to continue to use our veto to not hold Israel
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account accountable when it breaks the law diplomatic pressure is also very
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very important so there are many tools that the US has in order to compel Israel to do the right thing and I think
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for the sake of our world the us maybe Israel's most closest Ally but a good
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friend holds a friend accountable you don't give them a card blanch when they're not doing the right thing and I
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think it does Israel a great disservice when we don't hold it accountable because it creates a culture of impunity
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and that has been the situation for decades where they feel that they can or they can be the exception to every
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International law and standard either you're part of the International Community and you abide by the rules or
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you're a pariah State that's not that's made an exception to to every rule so so I think that if you care about your ally
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you will actually take action to set them and that that would be for Israel's best interest in the long term in the
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beginning of this war you were outspoken about the humanitarian concerns very early on and you are the queen of Jordan
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but you're also Palestinian you argued people need to understand that Palestinian mothers love their
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children just as much as Israeli mothers why do you feel like that needed to be
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said well because you know for decades the dehumanization of Palestinians has
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been an intentional approach that Israel adopted in order to numb people to Palestinian suffering you know um it's
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actually quite surprising to see just how deep the undercurrents of dehumanization ations run um Israelis
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have pretty much you know Arabs are generally accused of teaching hate and Palestinians as well but it's Israelis
8:40
have actually walled Palestinians out of sight and out of mind kind of reduced them to nameless faceless security
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threats that you have to defend yourself against they don't learn about Palestinians they never introduced to them as real people any attempts to
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bring Palestinian stories into books are are barred H so so this sense of and and
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and we actually saw that you know among the people blocking Aid into Palestinians were young teenagers I
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can't understand how anybody could be so indifferent to human suffering you're talking now about some of the protests
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that are trying to interrupt the shipment of Aid into G I'm talkinging about a deep culture an
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omnipresent um perspective about Palestinians that
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says that Palestinians are subhuman that they are violent because of something intrinsic in them it's something in
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their nature it's it's it's not because uh there is violence inflicted on them
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and so when you reduce people to a violent uh people who are who are
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different to us so they're not moral like us so therefore it's okay to inflict uh pain and suffering on them
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because they don't feel it the same way we do it allows people to do bad things that's that's the mental loophole of
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dehumanization it allows you to justify the unjustified to do bad things and still see yourself
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as a good person and we're seeing that happen in the case of
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Palestinians they they they don't feel the Palestinians that's why I said that mothers love their children the same way
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because you know it allows you to do bad things and not really have a moral dilemma with it and that's what H what's
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happening but you know dehumanization works both ways because when you lose your ability to empathize towards the
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other side you become hardened yourself it degrades your own um your own humanity and we're seeing this happening
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in Israeli Society where they're become so hardened and I just want to urge
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people to to understand that this narrative this propaganda that's been
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fed this anti- Palestinian racism that Palestinians do not want peace that
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Palestinians only understand the language of violence and force that is incorrect to see Hamas as representing
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Palestinian people you're saying is wrong absolutely wrong and also just to just to point out that most of the
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people alive in Gaza today were not alive when Hamas was elected they were either CH they were not born or they
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were children at the time so absolutely Hamas does not represent the majority of
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uh of Palestinians and if Palestinians hate Israelis it is not because of their religion or their identity it's because
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of the fact that they've only interacted with them as enforcers of a military State they have only known them through
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their chck checkpoints and bullets and guns it's not something that's inherently in them against Jewish people
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in fact I always try to remind people that you know we have coexisted um um
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Christians Muslims and Jewish people for the longest time that's where the three monotheistic religions were born and uh
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prior to the birth of Zionism the Muslim majority in Palestine lived in complete
11:51
friendship and tolerance with the with the Jewish minority there was never an issue of anti-Semitism there well you
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know historians will argue anti-Semitism has been present throughout history right and it is hard for people to hear
12:05
some of what you are saying and not react in that way where they hear a
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characterization of criticism of the Israeli government or the Israeli military and see where you're separating
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from Jewish people a lot of people don't hear a difference anti-Semitism is
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absolutely present and it's and it's been on the rise it's been on the Surge and it is the worst kind of
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bigotry it is pure hatred and I always say that Muslims had to be have to be at
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the Forefront of fighting anti-Semitism because islamophobia is the other side of the same disease and it's also on the
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rise Judaism is a a religion of Peace it is the the first of the three
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monotheistic religions and as Muslims you know we it was it was Judaism
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Christianity and Islam we all believe in the same God and the issue is when you try to conflate anti-israeli policy with
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anti-Semitism right anti-Semitism is when you persecute somebody or you uh
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discriminate against somebody based on their Jewish identity Israel is a state it has political policy political
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parties so you can criticize the state of Israel but that's not necessarily
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anti-Semitism so when people stand up and speak against the war in Gaza when
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they're talking about the um speak against the Collective punishment when you deprive people of food as a weapon
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of War when uh when entire population is displaced when there's indiscriminate bombing that is not anti-Semitism that
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is speaking against Israeli policy and I think it would be wrong to hold the
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Jewish Community responsible for the actions of the or the policies of Israel
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and many Jewish people absolutely reject this this conflation they they they want to
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protect their Jewish identity and say that they the Jewish faith has existed U
14:05
3,000 years before the birth of the state of Israel so it it predates the state of Israel and and uh to conflate
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the religious aspect with the politics I don't think serves anybody and it certainly doesn't bring us closer to
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peace well let me ask you about that because you know there protest at colleges across the United States here
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in New York other cities in solidarity with pal Ians in Gaza but there is also this perception among some students that
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they are unsafe because they are for example Jewish students what do you
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think of the protest and are you surprised to see Young Americans protesting like this first of all I
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think it's important to point out that Law and Order are Paramount for everybody and so it is important for
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students to abide by the rules of the campus to not disrupt classes to not disrupt other students exper College
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experience at the same time as I said there is a rise in anti-Semitism and it's wrong for any student to have to
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feel unsafe on campus that being said we need to emotions are running high and I
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think people are are are losing sight of what these these students are protesting
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for them the issue of Gaza and the Palestinian conflict is more about social justice they are standing up for
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human rights for international law for the principles that underpin international law they're standing up
15:27
for their the future they're going to inherit so they're asking their universities to divest from an illegal
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occupation but at the same time and may maybe more importantly they are suggesting that there is more to the
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story than we have been told that there is that the narrative that we have been fed that that that Israel is the victim
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and the Palestinians are are violent people who deserve what's happening to them that that is not the entire story
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why do you think that's happening on college campuses why do you think young people feel this way well actually it's a lot of people feel this way but
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college campuses have always been the site of uh of activism uh you know young
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students are learning about these issues at that age you want to stand up you're more idealistic you want to stand up for
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values you believe in you're you're outraged when when things are not going right when when when what you're taught
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and what you believe should be the right thing isn't happening and so they're expressing their views but I think to uh
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to paint all these students and all these protests in a in a broad paintbrush and to vilify them uh as
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being you know Pro Hamas or Pro terrorism or anti-semitic I think that's
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inaccurate and I think it's it's somewhat patronizing to some of these students because a lot of people are
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saying well you know they don't even know what they're protesting they're just protesting for the sake of it a lot of them are well read thoughtful young
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individuals who know exactly what they're protesting they are protesting for Justice and um do you think it will
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change US foreign policy well I I I don't know if it will change US foreign policy it's certainly a Grassroots
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movement and an expression of a generation that feel that there is a contradiction between um the values and
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principles that they were taught that this country stands for and what's actually happening on the ground and
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again let's not forget that there are um a substantial number of Jewish students
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who are involved in these protests and the vast majority of these protests want to be peaceful they don't want to be
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destructive um and I think the most important thing is to have genuine engagement uh W with with these students
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to have an open debate to hear from them and and explain to them you a lot of
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times they're saying well these kids need education I think we need to go into this knowing that we need education
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as well so it's a give and take H and and we saw an example in Brown University where that kind of healthy
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debate ended up you know sort of calming things down and where
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was win-win situation so the more you use Force I think the more it inflames uh the situation how are young people in
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Jordan thinking about this right now I mean what is the sentiment in terms of
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the American unconditional support for the government of Israel I have to say in one word there's outrage you know
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there is outrage because you know for most young people even those who maybe
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were against uh American foreign policy or whatever or disagreed with it we always looked up to the US you know as a
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country of a democratic country with Democratic Values with application of
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law with freedom of speech uh with you know human rights Etc and as I said you
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know young people are now feeling extremely disillusioned uh how can this be happening while the US is allowing it
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to happen while the rest of the world is is allowing it to happen blatant disregard for international law and and
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and just you know when the US uh when when Israel says you know that we are
19:12
not targeting civilians and then you look at the reality on the ground that we're seeing with our own two eyes and
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we're see and by the admission of uh some Israeli intelligence uh uh sources
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they were saying that they often attack their targets at night in the their homes with their families which has led
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to the deaths of thousands of women and children we have seen wild widely spread
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reports about Israel using uh AI systems to generate the largest number of targets
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prioritizing a quantity over quality and so the really by taking Humanity out of
19:49
the equation in their calculus it's okay to flatten an entire neighborhood or kill an entire family to get one Target
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and so the whole principle of proportionality and distinction between uh between civilian and combatant has
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has been abandoned in this war and you know when when Israelis are telling us you know they're dying because Hamas is
20:10
using them as human Shields well you know you have a place like like Gaza
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which is the one of the most densely populated places in the world being hit by an unprecedented number of dumb bombs
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which are untargeted unguided bombs or massive bombs which are the 2,000 lb bomb
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to put it perspective in fighting Isis the us only used one such bomb because
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it's known that it has a very high risk of killing civilians so you hit the most densely populated place on Earth with an
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unprecedented number of unguided bombs and massive bombs and we are supposed to
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believe that Israel is trying to avoid killing civilians it just doesn't it it
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doesn't add up you've had protests in Jordan yes outside Embassy and the like
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Amnesty International says Jordan security arrested at least 1500 people for
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protesting why are you concerned there is a threat to the stability of Jordan not at all I we know since the beginning
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of this war we've had thousands of people go out I think we've had about 1700 demonstrations of people going out
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advocating and and and standing out in solidarity with the Palestinian people and you know at the end of the day GE
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and most of these uh demonstrations have been friction free with the police and
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um but the end of the day Jordan is a country of Law and Order so as long as people AB are abiding by the law as I
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said with the demonstrations here then they are free to protest it's only when we see vandalism or attacks on public
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and private property that the security forces obviously have responsibility to come in step in but uh again Jordan has
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been probably at the Forefront of countries that have stood up um and spoken openly about out in defense of
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what's happening and you know in defense of Palestinians and and that's not just
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the leadership but that's also the people themselves the people the government and the leadership so we're we're on the same um page on this well
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the Director of National Intelligence in this country uh of real Haynes testified saying there will be a generational
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impact from the war in Gaza and that was also a gesture to Terror recruitment um
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How concerned are you that that is what may happen to some of these young people
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who you say are just inundated with images of what's Happening you know like
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I said it's it's it's it's not just the people who are on the extreme that that
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are being enraged by this it's people who are in the middle as well people who
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are westernized people who studied here people who who are suddenly just looking at the world and saying you know they're
22:56
so disillusioned they're saying you know clear clearly there are different standards that humanitarian law is
23:01
applied selectively and that our lives don't matter and that it's okay for for
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you know almost 15,000 children to be killed 19,000 to be orphaned it's it's okay for for you know the infrastructure
23:13
to be literate it's okay to use to stop the delivery of Aid and food to an
23:20
entire population that is collective punishment it's a war crime and it's happening and so the young people are
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saying you know I guess the West doesn't like us so so in my opinion this is
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probably one of the most radical large sorry largest recruitment event that
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we've seen in recent history because it's turned a lot of people away and it's making people feel
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like there's just no justice in this world and that is a very dangerous place to be that is what you were describing is
23:56
what defense secretary Austin warned Israel about that you could have
24:02
a tactical win and a strategic loss in the long term that's what I hear you saying that this will lead to more
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terror recruitment absolutely and I I again I do not we need to ask ourselves
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this the simple question is this war making Israel safer is it making our world safer you know I would argue after
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35,000 K people dead after the obliteration of the civilian
24:28
infrastructure in uh in in Gaza after the violations of so much after the
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rhetoric that we're hearing you know uh from Israeli officials calling Palestinians Human animals or saying
24:42
when the Prime Minister says that Palestinians are children of Darkness that they only understand the rules of
24:47
the Jungle you know when officials say we need to find a more effective way
24:53
than death to inflict suffering on Palestinians how is that making Israel safer I mean you know how this is we
25:01
need to create you peace is not about politics only it's about people it's about culture it's about state of mind
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it's about choosing tolerance over suspicion it's about choosing compromise and Reconciliation over the false
25:15
promise of Victory and the politics inside of Israel has shifted so far to the right
25:23
that it's become acceptable Israelis are surprised when the word word genocide is
25:29
used because they cannot see Palestinians as anything but as a security threat that they deserve what's
25:36
happening to them you know in a poll they're traumatized after October 7th absolutely traumatized I understand that
25:42
and I understand that because of my own background that I would identify with the Palestinian side more and I because
25:49
of that I challenge myself every single day to put myself in the shoes of an Israeli mother who is who has a child
25:57
that's been taken as h or um or any young Israeli who has been
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taught and who's heard of the horrible persecution that the Jewish people have had to endure in
26:09
Europe and uh and I try to empathize and see where they're coming from and
26:14
absolutely you know we need the hostages to go home as soon as possible and we
26:19
need the war to end as soon as possible so the Palestinians can go back to their homes if they have homes left so I
26:26
understand that that what happened in October 7th was traumatic and devastating for Israeli Society but the
26:33
reaction to it has not helped the situation you cannot just rely on your
26:40
this viseral reaction of Retribution and revenge
26:45
um because then you're just you know you're just going into the cycle of violence and just digging deeper in it
26:52
and it's just going to keep getting worse the Israel could have retaliated through Surgical stri stes against Hamas
27:00
but that's not what we're seeing today you know we are seeing a war that is not fought in a defensive way when you were
27:07
at the White House in February uh President Biden mentioned that your husband King Abdullah and two of your children had participated in air drops
27:14
in Gaza but you've referred to the air drops as just drops in an ocean what is
27:20
needed at this point to reverse the famine right so you know those air drops
27:25
were just acts of desperation and my husband said from day on they are inefficient they're costly and they do
27:30
not begin to meet the needs of uh the people of Gaza but in in our calculus it
27:36
was anything is better than nothing right and uh you know the hunger uh
27:43
figures in the Gaza are unprecedented every single person in Gaza is hungry a quarter of the population is starving
27:51
and uh when we saw that devastating attack on the world Central kitchens
27:57
there was a lot of pressure Israel to allow more food and Aid into Gaza
28:02
there's been a slight uptick but really at the end of the day there's they're
28:07
not even close to meeting the needs of well who could distribute that if the war ended even would Jordan be able to
28:14
come in and help withu this so so so so this is the thing you know I think what that strike did for example was stop
28:21
eight make lots of agencies suspend their operations because they didn't feel safe working in Gaza and this after
28:28
Israel has has uh has bombed flower Fields agricultural land fishing boats
28:33
basically decimating gaza's ability to feed itself not just today but for years to come and so what is required is a
28:41
permanent ceasefire that allows the hostages to go back home and people to go back to their homes we need to put
28:47
pressure on Israel to open all access points and the land access is the most efficient way to deliver Aid at at scale
28:54
we need to streamline the betting process which now is so um complicated and arbitrary and and you know they
29:01
could find one thing in a truck that they're don't approve and the whole truck has to go back and uh and the last
29:08
thing is that we need to allow Aid workers safe access within Gaza so that they can actually deliver the aid to the
29:15
people that need it but if we do not flood uh Gaza with Aid soon then we are
29:20
going to be facing a mass famine and I don't know how the world just is happy
29:25
doing that it's just it's it's a major stain in our global Consciousness to see this happening in slow motion and not do
29:31
something about it Jordan has had a peace treaty with Israel since 1994 if
29:36
Israel goes into Southern Gaza into Raa as the Prime Minister says he intends to do will peace hold as you said we've had
29:44
peace with Israel since 94 and Jordan always honors the commitments that signs
29:49
up to in peace agreements we will always be on the side of peace and diplomacy but but diplomacy requires trust and a
29:56
lot of that trust has been eroded over the years because of violations against people in razan the West Bank and uh and
30:04
because of the undermining of the Jordanian custodianship of the Christian and Muslim sites in Jerusalem which are
30:11
part of this agreement what do you mean by that what's happened uh well time and again uh you know we have violations
30:18
against Christian sites and Muslim sites by Israeli troops who are not allowing people to go in who are arresting people
30:25
who are not allowing people to pray we're seeing that happening all the time and so this is constantly undermining
30:32
the hashmic role and custodianship of these holy sites and so um so there is
30:39
an issue with that and when it when it comes to rafah the world you know there are ongoing daily strikes on ra as we
30:47
speak but if there was to be a fullscale Invasion uh then you know the world has warned that there will be a blood blood
30:53
bath and for the simple reason that half the population of Gaza is now Sheltering in we're talking about 50,000 people per
31:00
square mile and since the beginning of this war there was they were pushed
31:06
systematically further and further south RAF is the end of the line there's nowhere else for them to go there's only
31:11
a six square mile piece of land that could considered safe zone so they have
31:17
nowhere to go and um I don't know how Israel could go in surgically without
31:23
causing a massive number of uh civilian deaths and and so I think the world
31:29
really needs to compel Israel not to do it your majesty thank you for your time
31:34
I'm being told we are out of time thank you
