Video Infoblog with Transcript: Malaysian PM defends Hamas, condemns West 'hypocrisy' | DW News
Malaysia's Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim has spoken out about what he called Western "hypocrisy" over the war in Gaza compared to attitudes to Ukraine. Speaking to DW's Richard Walker in Berlin, Anwar slammed Western countries such as Germany for in his view failing to use their influence to make Israel halt the fighting. He argued that Hamas's unprecedented terror attacks of October 7th 2023 were "understandable" in the context of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. This extensive interview explores the deepening divisions in global attitudes to the Middle East Conflict. The West broadly rallied to Israel's side after Hamas killed more than 1,000 people and kidnapped hundreds on October 7th. But as casualties in Gaza have mounted even higher, that unity has fractured, and many in the Global South have voiced anger over perceptions that the West is indifferent to civilian suffering on the Palestinian side. Anwar Ibrahim expresses this anger – and goes on to set out why he believes in improving relations with Iran despite its repressive regime, and why he opposes "phobia" towards China. And finally he gives his reflections on his more than 10 years behind bars in Malaysian jails.
Transcript
0:00
the war in Gaza is dividing the world the Hamas terrorist attacks of October the 7th killed more than a thousand
0:07
people mostly civilians and many hostages are still being held and yet
0:12
since then the Israeli response has killed an even greater number of Palestinians and there are growing
0:18
accusations from the global South that the West is ignoring the plight of the people of Gaza one of the leading voices
0:25
expressing this view is anoir Ibrahim he's the prime minister of Malaysia and he's a leader who maintains links with
0:32
Hamas we talked to him here in Berlin drilling down into his views not just on
0:37
this but on why he also rejects other elements of Western World Views now this
0:43
is such a complex and controversial web of issues so you'll find some extra
0:48
context throughout the interview in case any terms or bits of background are
0:54
unfamiliar prime minister anir many thanks for speaking to DW today um you've been speaking a lot over the
1:01
course of this week um powerfully with accusations of hypocrisy towards the
1:07
West in its approach um to the crisis going on around the world and I think
1:13
with particular reference to the war in Gaza and comparing it to the war in Ukraine and comparing the Western
1:19
responses to these two conflicts um could you just explain the view that that you've been expressing no I'm
1:27
expressing the sentiments and feelings of so many people in the global South
1:33
that uh they want peace they want Justice and there should not be um
1:41
discriminatory practice or judging areas and
1:48
bias that's why I call it hypocrisy because um they seem to be very tough uh
1:54
on Ukraine and we have express the same thing we were against any agression any
2:01
conquest by any country right now that so why is it so difficult even to call
2:07
for CE fire in Gaza and how is it you can tolerate 60 years of atrocities of
2:14
dispossession of land being taken I mean that was the only thing that I need to
2:20
call upon the West to consider and at the time we went to we talk about
2:25
pachman understanding between East and West respect multic culture plalism and
2:31
it doesn't work that way people become more disillusion and distrusting of
2:36
political leaders now um Germany and the broader
2:42
West position their position has been very much with respect to Gaza that
2:47
Israel has the right to defend itself against the terrorist attack as they see
2:52
it that was mounted by Hamas a group that they see also as a terrorist group um on October the 7th
3:00
um do you reject that as any uh justification for the Western View on
3:07
things what about colonization of the last 50 60 years what about the dispossession what about the land being
3:21
taken what about the killings of children on a daily basis by the settlers taking people's land and
3:27
property is that not relevant where humanity is only uh and Justice
3:33
and atrocity is only committed on the 7th of October and nothing before that
3:38
why would why is it that the West can tolerate for 50 years of this ridiculous
3:44
atrocity these are questions that need to be raised people are not naive you
3:50
see nobody wants to condone any sort of atrocity by anyone you know but the
3:55
country is colonized all the war against colonialism all throughout these decades
4:03
and centuries in Vietnam in Algeria in South Africa paide do you talk about
4:10
atrocities committed by the Freedom Fighters you don't why give an exception
4:15
to Hamas might a point do I therefore condone OC no how do you stop Hamas
4:23
ocity stop the colonialism or colonization why why can't we we we look
4:30
at in a comprehensive manner how to resolve not from the dictates of the
4:35
capitals of Europe and the United States not all capitals fortunately but why you
4:42
see that's the point I'm not condoning any atrocity but the point is that you
4:48
seem to be very selective it's like selective Amnesia you choose um so
4:55
people question the global look at the The Narrative is it because they are color is it because there are Muslims although
5:01
there many Christians in in Gaza but why is it why is it that you you cannot
5:08
have sort transparent consistent coherent voice so let's I'd like to talk
5:15
about Hammer shortly but but let's get try to get specific then so we understand the argument that you're
5:20
making towards the broader West um you're here in Germany um is this
5:25
Behavior are these positions that you see in Germany do do you feel that in the German position there is hypocrisy
5:32
this hypocrisy that you describe well um let's say this that U okay Germany stand
5:40
to have this psyche of the midstone antecedent what happened
5:46
against the Jews the Holocaust which I condemn okay because uh no Community
5:54
including the Jews should be treated in that manner period so you have a special relation with is right that's your right
6:01
it's not a question but I'm questioning from 4748
6:06
NBA why why is it so difficult to take a
6:18
position yes you want to protect the security of Israel but why must the we
6:24
be mutant when it comes to atrocities against another people another race and
6:29
the group so so let's be more specific so so Germany of course it does say that
6:35
it has a historical responsibility towards the Jewish people towards the
6:40
state of Israel as a result of the crimes of the Holocaust you already referred to
6:52
that and this has been reiterated in recent months in the current situation
6:57
and this is part of the background um for Germany's position but Germany
7:02
has been critical of settlements it has been critical um of it is drawing a a
7:09
clearer line about what it sees as acceptable behavior it is becoming more critical um do you feel that Germany
7:15
still has to do more just staying specifically on Germany for now well I did U acknowledge U the position taken
7:24
by Germany now at is calling for immediate ceasefire and increase human
7:29
militarian assistance to Gaza but certainly it's not enough because you're a bit silent the fact
7:35
that continued attacks on the innocent lives in Gaza on the pretext of Hamas so
7:42
Hamas becomes a buy person whether they are there or not whether they've been
7:47
killed or not is irrelevant but the fact that you must completely destroy and kill children women and civilians and
7:56
and I I that's why I use the term hypocrisy um I can't I can't understand neither can I rationalize this but of
8:04
course I did acknowledge positively the statement by chancelor SCE for example calling for his fire and stop this war
8:12
and return of hostages I'm fine with her I don't have a problem with that but by by why this complete silence and
8:21
tolerance or continued atrocities pre 7th October and post 7th October you the
8:27
narrative the West is not accept Ed by the entire world that is the point it's
8:32
not Malaysia I choose to say it because I think it's matter conscience I I went
8:39
through hell in my life I know what solitary confinement is I know what Injustice
8:51
is so I I thought it is only proper that
8:56
I speak up but many my CS wanted to do that for fear for concerns for economic
9:05
um survival whatever reasons before moving on to the the next kind of area
9:11
of questions just to be specific again so your accusation of a hypocrisy I you
9:16
welcome some of the steps that Germany has made recently but your accusation of hypocrisy does apply to Germany as well
9:23
as the white West well at least before the final decision at is calling for a
9:28
assession uh of of of of atrocities or the attack
9:34
on on Gaza specifically NFA and calling for an increased humanitarian assistance
9:40
but even then people are getting cynical yes do increase so we send some support
9:46
but then the bombings continue well we will issue a polite statement to say now
9:52
stop these bombings you mean to say the entire Europe and America cannot wield
9:58
that in fluence that will stop the war nobody believe it so what's your
10:05
request to Germany what should it do they have they have they have um been
10:11
more assertive lately but I think they should U you know work within the EU and
10:18
uh coordinate with United States other countries to just insist just stop the
10:23
killing people cannot accept it I mean generally I mean I don't know how people see I I also mix around here went to the
10:31
in met Community M thing thing tanks and Scholars this morning was people no
10:39
rightmed person with any conscience for Humanity would want to this to
10:46
continue now let's move on to talked about Hamas you we've mentioned it already um you have said in recent days
10:54
that you make no apologies for the fact that Malaysia and your government has relations with Hamas
11:00
um even though it did murder more than a thousand civilians in early October on
11:06
October the 7th can you just explain to people who might think how could you have relations with a group like that
11:12
that conducts a terrorist atrocity like that how could you maintain friendly relations with them I'll respond to that
11:19
before that I will I will ask this question um and and this be a response
11:25
from leaders in Europe in the states how do you continue to engage and respect and honor and give credit to
11:33
Netanyahu and the government of Israel for the continued killing of 30,000 children women and
11:47
civilians yeah but we're asking you the questions today we want to understand your views yes I want to get the context
11:54
right and not only that for the decades that's why I see the the thing is polite
12:00
word would be contradiction the Frank statement would be hypocrisy you see now you why do I
12:08
engage with Hamas the political wing with Hamas not the military Wing
12:14
because they were the legitimate representative partly of the of the Palestinian people in Gaza and but if I
12:24
may interject I mean that was an election held in 2006 I mean that's almost 20 years
12:36
right but but till then we have to deal with them when we discuss with Myanmar
12:42
we discuss the military hun is that a question is that an
12:48
issue is that a legitimate representation of the people of north of Myanmar well well well the exi
12:54
government would say no on the case of Myanmar
13:05
but let's stay on H so that's why I see this this these contradictions abound what what I mean is okay if you
13:12
don't want to speak to Hamas whom do you speak to so given the limitations at present
13:18
when a country an area is colonized and Har is daily basis you talk about
13:25
Democratic elections you don't talk about the killings you don't talk about the possession you don't talk about the
13:30
land being taken you don't talk about the children being killed you don't talk the schools being destroyed that's my
13:35
contention now um and then of course Hamas is a terrorist
13:42
group I will ask you me Germany's colonized countries uh the French or the
13:49
Italians all the Freedom Fighters result to waste that you cannot
13:55
defend under normal International rule it happened yes Mandela is a Great
14:03
Hero yeah but Mandela didn't order the killing of a thousand people well you better pick up your
14:10
history because Mandela was part of the ENC and part with the NC were involved
14:16
in some of these actions but people accept that because the way they were
14:22
treated discriminated killed and
14:28
dispossessed
14:35
so so if I could drill down on this then are you suggesting that because of the way that Gaza has been
14:42
treated um that the 7th of October is justifiable maybe not
14:52
understandable explain more about where you're coming from well this is why I said this narrative here this narrative
14:59
native is the Mantra of 7th of October to some people in the west who
15:05
are completely I you say oblivious to the facts and the
15:11
realities ignorant of history or just um Amnesia I mean I'm talking about the 60
15:20
years of atrocity for goodness sake deal with it yeah and we say no no no we
15:26
don't care about the 60 years we don't care about the thousands kill before to us what is important in the 7th October
15:32
I said that's to you not to me to me before October 7th October after October
15:39
are all relevant in this discourse and we must deal with it in a comprehensive Manner and settle yeah how say we talk
15:47
about Humanity we talk about about freedom of people about the children you mean only children the white children of
15:54
Israel is relevant not the colored in Palestine what is the issue what is the
16:00
basis that you can condone the action of killing of 30,000
16:06
plus BL plus but you cannot condone another action do you ask me I don't
16:12
condone any killings of children of women or civilians and of course nor do we we're
16:18
simply trying to peel open your opinion yeah so that viewers can understand you
16:23
understand that prime minister I'm responding I mean no dis responding but and Chella has done very
16:30
extensive coverage of the full gamut of of the the conflict um including
16:36
settlements and including the situation in Gaza um but I just want to again come
16:41
back to understanding your view and the reason why you say it's legitimate to
16:46
have good relations with Hamas um so as far as I understand you you are
16:52
essentially saying that what happened on the 7th of October the taking of hostages and those killings is
16:59
understandable in the context of this long conflict is am I putting words in your not condoned yeah but but but of
17:07
course understandable because people have been uh victimizing so long so but
17:12
but my response is this the fact that uh and the other
17:18
state killed 30,000 people is not relevant you can still engage you can still praise but the other side because
17:26
I don't know whether because they are colored because they victimized because they are seen to be different or the other they cannot be condoned that's my
17:33
point so if you ask me for comp they comprehensive
17:39
solution just stop this Stop The Killing by either by the by the Palestinians against the Israelis or the Israelis get
17:46
the Palestinians there is a comprehensive settlement but why then be very selective as if the problem has
17:53
never happened except after 7th of October this is absurd it's appalling
17:59
display of total ignorance and attempt to erase historical facts I think the
18:05
point you're making is similar to a point that Antonio guich himself said uh last year of
18:18
course so it's not that nobody in from a western background is saying such thingses did not presentent Western View
18:27
present standing for theed Nations but but I just want to come back a little bit more to Hamas because I'm interested
18:33
in in how you view the kind of role that they can potentially play because of course Hamas you know it does say in the
18:39
Hamas Charter that there is no solution for the Palestinian question except
18:44
through
18:51
Jihad it says that any initiatives International conferences proposals are
18:56
a waste of time and vain endeavors doesn't that give you is isn't that a
19:01
concern that Hamas is a group that will forever be radical and will never be in
19:07
a in a place to try to find the kind of peaceful solution that you aspire to do
19:13
I agree with the position no but next question is why are you silent with the
19:19
fact with Israeli government and the Zion talk about greater Israel which covers the entire Palestine
19:27
area
19:34
that is why I said in Frank terms hypocrisy do I agree with the amastan I
19:41
would say no but why are you completely muted when it comes to Israelis saying
19:47
about great Israel demolish the whole their homes and don't recognize the politin in right yeah well but that does
19:54
get criticized by a lot of countries in the criticism not not enough not enough
20:00
not the man the narrative has been done the condemnation against Hamas but but
20:06
no the issue is not Hamas I does not to me it does not matter whether Hamas or
20:12
not if you find you want to find and secure lasting peace and
20:19
resolution the the people of Gaza the Palestinians have to elect their leaders you know they decide for
20:27
themselves I do not uh I don't have the right to claim that Hamas should be their representative I mean let them
20:35
decide you see the Israelis they decide I mean people may choose to like
20:43
the prime minister or not but they Israelis have to decide and then the legitimate representatives of these must
20:51
then be compel to negotiate with supervision of of M
20:59
Europe and the neighbors neighboring Arab states and of course United States
21:04
now there's obviously there is a growing desire and a growing recognition that a two-state solution is is urgently needed
21:11
something has been talked about for decades and never achieved um Malaysia itself does not recognize Israel does
21:18
not have diplomatic
21:27
relations what is that contingent on like if there is progress towards a two-state solution
21:33
are you happy to say yes we will be in there providing recognition to Israel at a point at which at whatever point along
21:41
that um process it looks like a Palestinian state is coming we we made it clear that uh as long as you respect
21:50
recognize the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinians and the rest will have to be recognized and
21:57
supported so I I don't think there's any any contradiction in that but as long as
22:04
you have an issue where colonization continues and um dispossession becomes
22:12
the order of the day it would be difficult to speak uh on
22:19
you know and and uh view that there is a
22:24
possible amicable resolution to the problem uh I mean do you personally
22:30
recognize Israel's right to exist as a state of course there's for for the
22:36
International Community to decide and they have decided the issue that we we we defer the recognition is because the
22:45
incence of Israel no respect for international law and Rule and I would
22:51
recognize countries and states that would respect International Rule and respect the legitimate aspirations of
22:57
other so do you think it was a mistake by the UAE and Bahrain as part of these Abraham
23:02
Accords to to recognize
23:14
Israel not necessarily a mistake when there are neighbors there are some considerations and security
23:19
considerations is for them to decide we maintain excellent relations with UAE
23:24
and the neighboring countries and and of course they I've engaged with them they've explained but there are
23:30
different considerations and Malaysia go far away we can take a more nuance and
23:37
independent STS now Malaysia also has good and improving ties to Iran hamas's
23:44
major backer in the region you met president RI I think twice in recent months you said after your meetings that
23:52
you want to see relations enhanced between Malaysia and Iran
23:59
how do you explain that I mean Iran is one of the most repressive regimes in the world I mean you said yourself you spent years in
24:06
jail fighting for democracy there are many people in Iran in jail who've been
24:11
thrown into jail after protests people have died do you really feel
24:19
comfortable saying you want to improve relations with a government with a country led by a government like that
24:25
well um I don't view Iran from the prism of the West
24:30
yes they excesses I don't accept that sort of a rabit
24:38
condemnation of the country we have access in many countries in Europe we know how minorities are being treated
24:44
you know the growing fascism you know what's happening to the blacks in Afric
24:51
from in in America they took decades to be recognized continue to respect why is it
24:57
that for United States is fine but when it comes to other countries you have a different standard I I I have excellent
25:05
relation with China I'm not I agree in every single decision of China I have very good relations with Germany there
25:11
some issues I defer so I think we have to take it and it's right and Malaysia
25:19
we are of course vibrant democracy I believe in democracy I believe in human rights but um we engage with countries
25:26
although they do not necessarily um share the same
25:32
aspirations and Views yeah um but so
25:38
just to pick up on that briefly I mean you're comparing the situation of African-Americans in the United States
25:44
to the situation of democracy activists in Iran you think that's a no because
25:50
different context different context I agree with you there different context but but the point is you don't uh engage
25:57
with countries that that share your views your values
26:02
in its entirety I I have extremely good relations to be fair the United States
26:09
leadership has been very forthcoming in my defense uh because the principle of
26:14
democracy and human rights of course I'm I'm grateful I'm but then you don't
26:20
erase as I said in the history with the fact that you know in the past decades how the blacks uh and the colored people
26:27
being treated but my point is that even with that happening you have you
26:33
continue to have good very good relations with the country but my point um my concern is this when it come to
26:40
China you have different rule you know huge uh criticism or question gives me
26:47
why I maintain good relation with China or with Iran but with the rest f is fine
26:52
even with countries that continue to bomb civilians and hospitals and schools and M and churches and they are
26:59
tolerated so that's why I have this problem with what I call The Narrative
27:06
of the western capitals I just want to be be consistent
27:12
yes many countries we we we don't share the aspirations but we still engage and
27:17
similarly with Iran and Iran you know I mean it may be
27:22
on the threshold of a nuclear weapon it threatens many of its Arab neighbors not just Israel that's so okay well um
27:31
America can have nuclear weapon it's fine Russia has Israel has but Iran you
27:36
cannot but you think but it would be a breach of the nonproliferation treaty for Iran to develop a nuclear
27:50
weap but no preparation treaty is of course selective
27:55
I don't believe in nuclear power uh
28:03
armaments even matter of aus we have made
28:15
understand and Malaysia is strong gu not
28:20
uh with on the issue non proliferation but uh again there n
28:28
cannot be selective you say yes to one country and you say no to the other country and that's what's happening in
28:34
this world and people are getting more critical and and I know because I engage with countries in the global South some
28:41
wouldn't have the courage because of a number reason to speak up but this is what being shared so let's talk about
28:47
China you mentioned China already I mean you do maintain good relations with China you're particularly warned against
28:54
you know an a rat further ratcheting of tensions in the whole region in the
28:59
South China Sea also between the United States and China what's your big
29:05
fair you you fear a war between the US and China is that your greatest fear
29:11
yeah we have expressed concern that's why when I was in San Francisco for the ape meeting uh and the day before there
29:17
was this U meeting uh between uh chining
29:22
and President Biden we welcome that and I said the public is is something that is so reassuring
29:28
uh and give some semblance of uh peace and for the
29:34
region uh I don't I don't I completely disagree with this issue of heightening
29:39
tension and creating this this China phobia I said from our prism from aan
29:46
position we don't have that problem so don't impose and don't try and influence
29:51
us against because we maintain excellent bilateral relations with America
29:57
cumulatively America is the greatest investor into Malaysia we continue to encourage them but at the same time
30:03
China's been very positive in aggressiv of the investment into Malaysia and very
30:09
important trading partner so we'll continue and do you think the United States is going too far in its effort I
30:15
mean China accuses it of trying to contain the People's Republic of China
30:21
um the US has put on all sorts of sanctions to limit you know the exports of high technology and stuff like that
30:27
do you think America is going too far down a a cold war route this is the Chinese accusation it's no matter of
30:32
Chinese accusation this is selective I mean I I I completely disagree but I
30:38
think I believe in open trade you teach us open trade when it comes to affect a
30:43
bit of your interest that you start protectionism and selective uh position
30:49
or policies and that's the problem do you believe an open trade trade then see
30:54
I mean we have uh in the 5G you have selected
30:59
right but we see since that growing uh technology technology advancement of say
31:07
Huawei I'm open to the idea of having Huawei
31:18
too but you ask me in an open process why did we select Ericson is it
31:25
because it is European maybe because not Chinese it's not our consideration we thought is the best it has the capacity
31:32
and capability and we uh take it I mean I want countes to see that in that light
31:38
we take what is best for our country ours is a small developing country we
31:44
need to engage with most countries uh we benefited immensely by trade we are
31:49
working in Fast Track for the uh EU PTA and Trade Agreement FDA and and to my
31:58
mind that is crucial for our survival and our economic
32:11
survival but looking again at the China us competition that's that's heating up
32:17
in Asia um I mean we can see that the Chinese essentially think that it's time for the US to be getting out of Asia
32:24
that that you know this is China's rightful kind of backyard um are you concerned about the
32:30
consequences for smaller countries like Malaysia or asan more widely if China is
32:35
the only sort of only big beast in town after all I mean it claims pretty much the entirety of the South China Sea
32:42
including a number of uh features geographical features which are claimed by Malaysia as
32:53
well we do consider China a beast or America as a beast you don't want one Beast we don't want two beasts two my
33:01
position is and we we have never precluded American presence I mean there are so also military
33:09
exercises uh which cannot be deemed to be provocative with the United States
33:14
with Australia with the UK with New Zealand now we are continuing so people don't understand because the problem is
33:20
you you package into one one particular position now because we
33:27
say we are friendly with China as if we are not friendly with the West not true because as I said Investments military
33:36
uh even collaboration continues even with United States of course uh I'm not
33:42
talking about you know excessive sort of
33:48
military presence I disagree because it be deemed a provocation but otherwise
33:53
we're continuing I mean we as even the new reform government has not stopped or
34:00
discouraged any engagement including military engagement with United States
34:05
now Prim Minister I know we're out of time but I would just like to ask a more kind of personal question about you
34:10
about your own history um some of our viewers will know that that you were someone who spent many years in jail um
34:17
on trumped up charges some related to Antiquated colonial era sodomy uh
34:24
legislation from the year 1860 or so uh um you are now prime minister of
34:29
Malaysia how do you reflect on that political life that you have led so far
34:36
um on your own fight for personal but also Democratic freedoms and also on the use of this kind of antiquated
34:43
legislation which you know India has got rid of this section 377 it was in Singapore as
34:56
well is it time for Malaysia to to be junking some of these Colonial laws no
35:02
what I've learned is of course um the sufferings during the tragic years more
35:10
than 10 and a half years back and forth into prison in solitary confinement of
35:16
course it's tough but which means it strengthened my resolve that the country must be Democratic
35:23
the Injustice and inflicted upon me should not uh affect any other uh
35:32
Malayan the Country Must evolve into vibrant mature democracy Now some
35:38
Antiquated laws are present as a country we do not
35:44
accept gay marriage or public display of homosexuality lism
35:50
there's a position of Muslims Christians Hindus Buddhist overall there's right
35:56
decision of our people who have their faith and their values and should not
36:02
impose upon them but should we harass people with their own personal views no
36:08
that is why some Antiquated laws have to be reviewed you should not harass
36:14
people um but then uh public display and to legitimize no there's the
36:21
sentiment of the of the people at large it's not just the mus Muslims you talk
36:26
The General Christians or Buddhist or Hindus in Malaysia there is their
36:32
sentiment and in a democratic tradition respect not only the majority the vast
36:39
majority almost unanimity in terms of these views but we have a problem
36:46
because the West feels that it's all Antiquated we don't but to use this to
36:55
oppress people this this is a position which I've taken you cannot use any
37:03
law and abuse the process and make the Judiciary subservient to
37:11
the executive as we have seen in the past prime minister thank you very much for
37:17
your time today thank
37:26
you
