Pulitzer Winner Nathan Thrall on Israel's "System of Domination" and Biden Pausing Bomb Shipment
Jerusalem-based journalist and author Nathan Thrall has been awarded the 2024 Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction for his book, _A Day in the Life of Abed Salama: Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy_. It tells the story of Israel's occupation of the West Bank through one Palestinian father's quest to seek answers and accountability after his 5-year-old son is involved in a deadly accident. We speak to Thrall about President Biden saying for the first time that he would not supply certain weapons to Israel to be used in an all-out invasion of Rafah. "It is too little, too late," Thrall says. "It is a step in the right direction, but the administration has said that it has not made a final determination even about these paused weapons." Thrall also discusses Israel's ceasefire talks with Hamas, anti-Netanyahu protests led by families of Israeli hostages, Israel's intensified crackdown in the West Bank, how criticism of Israel is conflated with antisemitism, and why debates over the future of a Palestinian state are an "enormous distraction from the reality on the ground" — that is, the Israeli occupation’s "system of domination that is extremely bureaucratic and elaborate, that] has lasted for over half a century and [is] not going anywhere."
Transcript
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the Warren peace report I'm Amy Goodman
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with nuring she President Biden has said
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for the first time he would not supply
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certain weapons to Israel to be used for
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an allout invasion of Rafa Biden's
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comments came after his administration's
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decision last week to pause a shipment
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of heavy bombs to Israel while at the
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same time approving another 82 $27
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million for other weapons and equipment
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to the Israeli military in an interview
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on CNN Wednesday Biden responded to a
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question about the Paul's transfer of
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2,000lb bombs and was asked whether
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those bombs have been used to by Israel
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to kill civilians in Gaza he was also
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asked whether Israel's attacks on GA on
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Rafa have crossed a red line he was
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interviewed by CNN's Aaron Bernett
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civilians have been killed in Gaza as a
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consequence of those bombs and other way
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in which they go after population
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centers and I made it clear that if they
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go into Rafa they haven't gone into Rafa
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yet if they go into Rafa I'm not
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supplying the weapons that have been
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used historically to deal with Rafa to
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deal with the cities to deal with that
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problem we're going to continue to make
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sure Israel is secure in terms of Iron
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Dome and their ability to respond to
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attacks like came out of the uh in the
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Middle East recently but it's uh it's
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it's just wrong we're not going to we're
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not going to supply the weapons and the
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artillery shells used that have been
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used artillery shells as well yeah
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artill shell so just to understand what
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they're doing right now in Rafa is that
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not going into Rafa as as you they they
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haven't gone into the population centers
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what they did is right in the border and
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it's causing problems with right now in
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terms of with Egypt which I've worked
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very hard to make sure we a relationship
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and help but uh I've made it clear to BB
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in the war cabinet they're not going to
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get our support if in fact they go on
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these population centers we're not
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walking away from Israel's security
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we're walking away Israel's ability to
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wage war in those areas so it's not over
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your red line yet not yet President
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Biden's comments come as his
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administration has delayed issuing a
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report to determine whether Israel's
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violated us and international law and
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its war on Gaza for more we're joined by
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the Jerusalem based journalist and
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writer Nathan throl he just won the
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Pulitzer Prize this week for his most
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recent book A Day in the Life of Abid
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Salama anatomy of a Jerusalem tragedy
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which tells the story of Israel's
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occupation of the West Bank through one
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family's tragedy he's also the author of
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the only language they understand
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forcing compromise in Israel and
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Palestine Nathan is joining us today
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from Berlin Germany welcome to democra
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now so Nathan if you can start off by
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responding to President Biden's comments
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uh saying that the the shipment of
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2,000lb bombs is being delayed because
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they don't want them to be used in Gaza
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this doesn't relate to the emergency
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funding for Israeli military that um he
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just signed off on but it is highly
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significant can you talk about what this
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means for Israel and the Rage of
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Netanyahu and Ben gavier and others uh
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Ben gavier just posting Biden Hearts
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Hamas thank you Amy um you know it's
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it's too little too late um it is a step
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in the right direction but the
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Administration has said that it has not
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made a final determination even about
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these paused uh weapons Biden said
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something very important it's wrong he
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also said something something important
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uh months ago which is that Israel is
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bombing indiscriminately and it's doing
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that indiscriminate bombing with us
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weapons so it is very simple for Biden
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to end this and to have ended this a
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long time ago and it's not by
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threatening to pause a small portion of
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the weapons that are coming in very
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early in this war Israel could not
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continue to conduct it without resupply
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from the United States United States is
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fully complicit I am a US taxpayer and I
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am paying to kill Palestinian
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civilians so Nathan if you've just
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mentioned uh uh you know end ending the
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war and there was a possibility a
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ceasefire proposal earlier this week was
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accepted by Hamas uh in a move that was
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uh that surprised many including uh uh
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Israel uh the ceasefire which was
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negotiated put together by uh Egypt and
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Qatar and just days earlier before Hamas
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accepted the ceasefire on April 29th
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Anthony blinkin secretary of state had
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said the proposal was quote quite
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extraordinarily generous on the part of
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Israel and that Hamas was the only
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obstacle to a ceasefire and Israel has
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now said that the proposal Falls far
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short of its demands but it's continuing
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its negotiations in Cairo so if you
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could uh tell us what you think the main
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points of contention on
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and how much that proposal changed uh
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from the one that Israel was initially
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had initially approved and this one uh
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uh that Hamas has agreed
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to so uh the fundamental obstacle in uh
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all of these uh ceasefire negotiations
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has been one Central issue and that is
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that Hamas has demanded that the hostage
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exchange be accompanied by an end uh to
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the war and Israel has refused it says
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it wants to get the hostages back and to
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do a prisoner exchange with Hamas and
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then to continue pummeling uh Gaza uh
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Hamas and any other party in its place
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would be insane to accept such a deal it
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is the only leverage they have and uh
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they cannot afford to agree to a
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ceasefire a so-called ceasefire uh that
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has them relinquish the only asset that
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they have that Israel wants without a
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commitment that this is an end uh to the
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war and so the fundamental issue is that
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Hamas says that the proposal that was
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given to it does entail an end to the
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war a full sustainable calm that's
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guaranteed by the United States and
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other uh mediators and Israel says it
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rejects that um and we have seen the
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text of The Proposal that Hamas has
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accepted it is very close to what has
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been reported on all of the negotiations
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over the past week uh and we haven't
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seen uh the text that Israel says uh
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slightly differs in uh wording can you
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talk about what's going on on the ground
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in Israel I mean we just reported that
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last night hostage families clashed with
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police in Tel Aviv two people were
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arrested uh one sister of a hostage was
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host hospitalized uh her mother said end
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the war with Hamas how significant is
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this movement of Hostage families and
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all their allies and is that putting
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pressure on Netanyahu do you think he is
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going to actually engage in this
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wholesale ground assault on
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Rafa the protests for and a hostage
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exchange deal are a tremendous uh
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pressure on the government and uh if
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they uh grow in size they they will make
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the current Coalition and Netanyahu uh
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sweat uh even more so they are uh very
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uh significant um but uh you know as we
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have seen they are not sufficient yet to
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have gotten Israel to agree uh to a
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ceasefire uh proposal and so far uh
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Biden's limited threat um has not been
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enough
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either so Nathan uh just to uh you know
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you have lived in uh Jerusalem and in
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Israel for for many years over a decade
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we last spoke to you just days before
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the October 7th attack if you could
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begin by talking about your response uh
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to hamas's attack and then what's
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unfolded since whether you were
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surprised by this by either the scale of
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the Hamas attack and then of course uh
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what Israel has Unleashed on
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Gaza yeah um the the book tour that I
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was on began you know uh several days
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before October 7th and I was actually in
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uh the US and on Democracy Now with uh
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the Title Character Abid Salama um and
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uh he and I had returned uh from an
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event on Friday night and we got the uh
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news late that night as it was early
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morning uh Saturday morning uh in Israel
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Palestine and we were both uh utterly
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shocked and we realized that the entire
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atmosphere that would be um first of all
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the entire atmosphere that his family
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was is living in was about to change
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radically and his entire Community was
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uh locked down immediately and uh and
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and that the whole uh region was going
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to to change um uh not to mention the
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fact that there would be much more
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hostility uh toward the message of this
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book uh and that it would be much more
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difficult for us to speak and and indeed
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uh many of our events were canell after
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October 7th and Nathan could you situate
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of course you you've just mentioned your
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book A Day in the Life of Abid Salama
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anatomy of a Jerusalem tragedy if you
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could talk about that book what prompted
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it and situated it in the context of of
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what we've seen in the last several
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months yeah so you know the the Genesis
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of the book was really a a a place of
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frustration for me in working on Israel
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Palestine for many years and watching as
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uh a a heightened period of violence
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like a war in Gaza immediately brings
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Israel Palestine uh into the news it uh
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mobilizes uh students and it gets the
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attention of the world and uh leaders
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around the world invariably call for a
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restoration of calm and what I wanted to
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write about in this book was that
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so-called calm which is anything but
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calm for Palestinians it's a system of
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domination that is uh extremely
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bureaucratic and elaborate and has
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lasted for over half a century and it is
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not going anywhere and so long as we are
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only seeing Bloodshed periodic Bloodshed
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and calling for a restoration of the
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so-called calm that existed before that
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Bloodshed we are doomed to see that
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Bloodshed repeat and my intention was to
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choose something seemingly commonplace
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like a bus accident involving a group of
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Palestinian kindergarteners to describe
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the system of control and how Ordinary
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People Palestinians and Jews living in
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this area both navigate through the
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system that's controlling them and also
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Implement uh and create this system uh
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and and so the idea was to bring our
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attention to this deeply deeply unjust
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system that is fully supported by the
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United States and its Western allies and
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what was happening Nathan in the West
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Bank uh prior to October 7th and now the
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number of people who've been killed
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since killed and arrested the
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Palestinians uh since October
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7th prior to October 7th we had already
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seen a spike in aggressive behavior from
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the Army and uh armed settlers in the
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West Bank the un uh issued a uh small
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report at the end of September talking
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about unprecedent Ed levels of forced
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displacement of Palestinian uh Bin and
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uh it said that roughly uh
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1,100 Palestinian bedin had been
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displaced in the last year and a half um
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in the period immediately after October
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7th while all the eyes of the world were
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on
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Gaza an even greater number more than
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1200 and just the weeks after October
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7th more more than 1200 Palestinian bwin
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uh were displaced uh in the West Bank
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there has been a surge uh in violence
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there have been hundreds of Palestinians
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uh who have been uh killed uh huge
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numbers who have been arrested many of
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them held without uh trial or charge
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under so-called administrative detention
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which can be held for up to 6 months and
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then renewed
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indefinitely and in general the cons the
13:58
rest restrictions on movement in the
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West Bank are the worst that they have
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ever been since the occupation began it
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now takes me uh hours to get uh to
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locations that took me a half hour or 40
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minutes in the past um all of the uh
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jobs virtually all of them in the
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settlements and in Israel which so many
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Palestinian extended families depend on
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these are the higher paying jobs for
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Palestinians in the West Bank uh those
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have all but disappeared and so
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Palestinians are strangled uh
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economically they are strangled with in
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terms of their uh movement I just went a
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few weeks ago to a dinner uh an ifar
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dinner at Abed salama's uh home and his
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brother uh who his entire family lives
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in anata uh his brother lives in rala
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and he said he had not left rala since
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October 7th because the restrictions on
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movement and also because of the
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unsafety the the settler attacks and and
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and all of the violence that is
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happening uh in the West Bank while the
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world's attention is focused on Gaza and
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so Nathan explain you've said uh why is
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why are all the discussions about a
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one-state or two-state solution as the
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possible resolution to this why do you
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think those uh conversations are I can't
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hear anything I'm sorry
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um we've lost audio we're going to go to
15:33
a music break unless Nathan breaks in
15:35
and says he can hear us and then we'll
15:37
come back and then we're going to talk
15:38
about the largest election in the world
15:41
India we're talking to Nathan thr uh
15:44
he's speaking to us from Berlin Germany
15:46
though is usually based in Jerusalem um
15:49
ah he's back so uh nine why don't you
15:51
finish your question Nathan I was asking
15:53
you about why you think uh the
15:55
discussions around a two-state or
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one-state solution are the wrong
15:59
discussions to be
16:03
happening you know these uh
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conversations are uh premised on the
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notion uh that Israel eventually has to
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choose it has to either give the
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millions of Palestinians living under
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its control without basic civil rights
16:20
it has to give them either uh
16:23
citizenship with equality or statehood
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and uh so many people in the Diplomatic
16:30
Community would like to have as they
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have been having for decades debates
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about what a two-state outcome should
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look like whether there should be two
16:39
states or one state or Confederation or
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what have you and all of that is an
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enormous distraction from the reality on
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the ground because the fact is of the
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matter is Israel does not have to choose
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between two states and one state it
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doesn't have to choose between giving
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Palestinians sovereignty or citizenship
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it has a third option which is to
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continue on the path that it's going
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down the path that it's going down is a
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slow def facto annexation of the West
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Bank an absorption of the Westbank
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settlements in area C A takeover of
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Palestinian land and a uh constriction
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of Palestinians into small uh walled off
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or fenced off communities like the town
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of anata where my uh book takes place or
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uh like G
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and and so rather than focusing on the
17:33
reality which is a movement in the
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opposite direction of either two states
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or equality in one state but rather a
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deepening of the system of control that
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leading human rights organizations like
17:45
Amnesty International and Human Rights
17:47
Watch and the UN Human Rights Council
17:49
and alhak and bet selum have all
17:52
described as a system of apartheid
17:55
rather than addressing that system uh
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Israel would very much like for
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everybody to debate what would be the
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ideal outcome what is the future Utopia
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that we would all like and let's only
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address this structural inequality this
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systematic domination once we've all
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agreed that uh We've we've landed on the
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right uh perfect uh outcome Nathan
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before we go we were remiss and not
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congratulating you on the Pulitzer Prize
18:24
this week for your book um when you came
18:27
here it was thank you very much it was
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two days uh uh before October 7th your
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book had just come out you had um events
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up the wazo so many of them were
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cancelled and you're in Berlin right now
18:40
in Germany Germany has been a remarkable
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scene where you have German police
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arresting Jewish protesters uh saying
18:48
that they cannot criticize Israel um
18:51
what has happened with your events from
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Germany to the United States as you
18:56
raise questions about Israel war on
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Gaza in Germany I had an event that was
19:06
to take place on Tuesday in Frankfurt
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that was uh cancelled at the very last
19:11
minute by the union International Club
19:14
in Frankfurt and none of the people who
19:17
cancelled the event had read the book or
19:19
knew a thing about uh about it and none
19:23
of them had or provided any substantive
19:27
uh reason for the cancellation and the
19:29
same thing was happening to me in the
19:31
United States and uh the reason in
19:35
Germany is everybody is afraid of being
19:39
accused of anti-Semitism and and what
19:42
they're really being accused of is not
19:44
anti-Semitism but criticism of Israel
19:47
that is described as anti-Semitism and
19:50
Israel has spent years Israel and its
19:52
allies have spent years in the United
19:54
States and in Germany putting forward a
19:57
definition of anti-semitism that
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includes criticism of Israel entirely
20:01
legitimate criticism of Israel and
20:03
trying to get around our basic
20:06
Democratic commitment to free speech by
20:09
describing uh uh speech that is entirely
20:13
legitimate as anti-semitic and so that's
20:15
what's happened here and and who of
20:17
course is the close Ally of Israel the
20:20
most pro-israel Force here in Germany
20:23
it's the far uh right uh party as we see
20:27
elsewhere ethn nationalists love Israel
20:30
as a model for the kind of place they
20:33
want to become an ethnonational state
20:36
that will dominate over uh uh people who
20:39
are not like them democracy Now is
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