Video Infoblog with transcript: The Israel & Palestine Conflict Explained w/ Rashid Khalidi
Transcript
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hey everybody how you doing uh here to do something a little different today normally giving tours of neighborhoods and things but today we're going to have
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a very serious conversation with an expert on a field that is very relevant today uh we're going to talk to uh the
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Edward S professor of modern Arab studies here at Columbia University uh his name is Rashid khi he recently
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authored the book uh the Hundred Years War on Palestine uh very important very good book and we're going to talk about
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what's going on to kind of learn I think it's very important to have these discussions and the more information and the more discuss question that are out
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there the better so I guess no more delay cam what do you think should we just go up there and have a chat with
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the professor let's do it let's do it Professor if you want to do me a favor if you could just take your hands like
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this and do a little clap you ready to go yep all right so I'm here uh with uh Professor Rasheed khi we're going to
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we're going to talk about his latest book everything that's going on in the world a tall order but uh get started
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how you doing Professor I've been better sure I guess I should have expected that
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um but I first of all I want to congratulate on your book um you obviously wrote it a little bit ago but it's an incredible book a great primer
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into everything that's going on uh so I fig we could just kind of start there um so the way you divided up your book I
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thought was very helpful you divid it up I guess into six kind of time periods or dates that you consider Declarations of
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War um and I think what it did a good job of is not only talking about the facts and things that are going on but
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how it relates and how it affects the people who are there right so it's not just dates and talks and this
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it puts in perspective so I thought we could just start there if that's okay with you mhm great well then let's start there so the first one the first chapter
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you have you talk about the year 1917 I guess quickly I guess uh maybe you could
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talk about the significance and we can just get started there yeah um I start with 1917 because that's the year in
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which the British occupied Palestine and issued the B for declaration and in my
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understanding and my analysis and the argument I'm making that start the series of events that lead us to the
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present you know you could start at another starting point you could start with the beginning of Zionism you could
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start any other time um earlier or even later um you could start in 1967 but I
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think that the dynamic that we have seen without exception starts in 1917 great
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power arriving MH and endorsing this National project the Zionist project and
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that's where I think everything starts rolling I do not think that you can understand what's happening
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in Palestine or the creation of Israel without understanding the enormous importance of great power involvement um
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and that's why I start with the balford Declaration and the British occupation of Palestine and to be and to just to clarify the balford Declaration being
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the British saying we endorse a national home for the Jewish people his Majesty's
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government looks with favor on the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine it being understood blah blah blah right and what
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they say positively about their being being a Jewish people and they're being entitled to a national home and Britain
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supporting that is not matched by anything about the Palestinians they talk about civil and religious rights
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for the existing non-jewish community so you don't exist as a people you are not named the people who are named and the
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people who have National rights and political rights are the Jewish people right so that sets the framework from
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then to today and if you look at the way which in which Israel is regarded and the way in which the Palestinians are
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regarded from the establishment of of Israel to the present it replicates that
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uneven playing field where the British have special regard for Zionism and absolutely no regard for the
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Palestinians in the balfor Declaration and later on in the Mandate for Palestine that they administer under the
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League of Nations and this bord declaration uh just to I guess also clarify is is kind of the culmination a
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little bit in a way of of decades now little of settlements and and different I guess Aliyah or alot they were talking
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about different groups and waves of uh that had started in the late 1800s I guess to pick up steam and Zionism being
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kind of the the Nationalist drive to establish a right um so so the the British kind of get involved and I think
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what was interesting also in the book is that you talk about how it was kind of a uh a a political endorsement more than a
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religious endorsement because in fact Bal for himself right was in the past had had kind of indorsed the opposite
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side he was you know um so I thought that was very interesting when bfor was prime minister when he was yeah the
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British Parliament under his leadership passed one of the most anti-Semitic acts in British history of the alien
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Exclusion Act to keep Jewish refugees fleeing pams in Russia from entering
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Britain so you know philosemitism or love of Jews or anything like that was
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not really the driving Factor it was strategic the British wanted to control Palestine and they saw the Zionist
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project as what could become what a British official later called a little loyal Jewish olster in a sea of hostile
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Arabs so that's what they were after yeah yeah and it's I guess also too to add on to that those same pograms are
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what pushed a lot of the early settlements into what what became Israel and also what what pushed a lot of the
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settlement to New York even a lot of the Jewish immigration came here because much larger numbers of people right who
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left the persecution of zaris Russia ended up here or in other countries of
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immigration like Canada Australia New Zealand then ever went to Palestine uh the ones who went to Palestine were
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people who believed in Zionism which is a national project saying that the Jews are a modern people deserving a modern
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nation state um and it was a movement started you know political movement started in 1897 Theodore Herzel was the
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founder um and had been searching for an external Patron because they understood that to colonize Palestine they used
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that term it's not my term it's their term to colonize Palestine and to
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establish a Jewish State there they needed a great power Patron so Herzel went around Europe Europe went to the Germans Kaiser went to the French and so
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on his successor Kim vitman uh uh hit Pay Dirt with the British during World
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War I and that's part of the Genesis of this of this Bal for declaration right and I I think it's interesting so I'm
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just going to keep adding on to the things you say because they're so interesting but when you bring up the the word and the the term colonization
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uh it's interesting how you say that's the term they use because this is coming from a Time the 1800s when that isn't
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the dirty word it is today exactly um which I think is an important Point as we continue the conversation attitudes
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have changed towards this idea in fact right up to World War II up to World War II you know the colonial Powers
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dominated the world and we're proud of being Colonial Powers settler colonialism was a good thing doing what
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we did to Native Americans or doing what the British did to Native populations in
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New Zealand or Canada or Australia was a good thing and so the Zionist project
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which is on a national project right also saw itself as a settler Colonial
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project with a right to Palestine whether biblical or otherwise but it
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understood that the process it was undertaking involved doing to the native population what settler colonial
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projects do and there's a ton of documentation of how Herzel and vitman
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and Boran all the and jabotinsky all the earlier Le earliest leaders of the Zionist movement saw things in that way
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after World War II things changed uh the zionists came into conflict with the British and they started to portray
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themselves as anti-colonial but the settler Colonial process was embedded in
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how they uh approached Palestine and dealt with it uh and they weren't embarrassed about using those terms so
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you had something called the Jewish colonization agency that's their name for that's not my name for it uh and
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that existed up until 19 I think 58 MH so uh yes something changes of course
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after World War II but the nature of the process you can look at it today in the West Bank if this isn't settler
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colonialism I don't know what it is and it's interesting you bring that up because I guess we're going to go to that part part here in a second but
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postor War II around the time that Israel is being established Independence all that is around is the opposite is
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happening in the rest of the world other places are actually shaking off exact colonization in Africa and all these in
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the Middle East all these different things you got all these Independence movements breaking away from colonization at the same time a colonization project is being started
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right or continuing at the very Le or successful it's established as a nation so decolonization is taking place in
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many parts of the world after World War II and in Palestine that process is you know successful right right which brings
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I guess to the next part uh I'm sorry if I'm talking too fast let me know if I need to slow down I drink a lot of coffee today so okay so the ne that
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brings us to the next part which is 1947 you have the next the next which is 1947 you got post World War II and I guess
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the UN partition plan here uh and then obviously in 1948 you have Independence I guess maybe you could talk a little
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bit about this period as well right um one of the problems with the the way in
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which what happens in 1947-48 is it's looked at in
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isolation um people don't see for example the impact of the Palestinians
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on the Palestinians of their failed Revolt of the late 1930s when the British bring in 100,000 troops kill
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wound imprison and Exile maybe 16 17% of the adult male population confiscate all
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the weapons destroy the Palestinian national movement build up the Armed Forces of the Zionist movement train
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them arm them expand them and so on uh they don't also think about the shift
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that takes place in World War II where the British Empire really is is on the ropes and you have two new superpowers
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emerge with the J with the uh German attack the Nazi attack on Russia and
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with the Japanese attack on the United States suddenly Britain and France and the Old Colonial powers are dwarfed by
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these two new Giants these are the superpowers uh and that's enormously important for what follows for 4748
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finally there's the Holocaust um everything in Palestine is affected one way or another by these events in Europe
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these events like the pgrs of the 1880s and 1890s or 1904 1905 in Russia or um
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the rise to power of Hitler in the 1930s immigration from Russia and
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immigration from Germany is driven by European anti-Semitism uh it there's a nationalist project there but many
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people are just fleing for their lives or because the persecution is in intolerable and you have then the
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Holocaust this massacre of 6 million people 6 million Jews and millions and millions of others um and that in turn
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has an enormous effect it has an effect in particular on the western Powers uh who are The Victors of World War II all
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of whom are guilty of not doing enough to stop the and all those kind of things in particular because of the because of
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the racist immigration laws that we had in this country and that the British had and that other
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countries had such that people who could have been saved before World War II
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could not get out there was no place to go I mean I was talking to a friend the other day who described to me how her
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parents had to scramble to get visas to get out of Czechoslovakia uh and finally managed
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and so she was born in the United States but other members of the family died in the Holocaust because they couldn't get
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a place of Refuge uh after uh after the Nazis took over Czechoslovakia 3839 and
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so there's a sense of there's a there's a there's a sense of guilt and they had good reason to be feel guilty and that
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in turn spurred the the the support that the Zionist project got uh in the United
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Nations in 1947 so the partition plan that's adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in November of 1947 is
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adopted because you have these two new superpowers both of which push for it the Soviet Union and the United States
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because you have this deep sense of guilt on the part of Western countries and also because you have strategic
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motives so both the Soviets and the Americans thought that they could gain Advantage by from the establishment of
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Israel strategic Advantage just like the British back in 1917 the essential
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motivation is not some deep compassion on the part of Statesmen in Washington
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or politicians in in in Moscow it's a calculation of advantage for their country uh in the Middle East M and so
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this partition plan is proposed 47 and I a common thing you'll hear a lot is okay
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well uh Israelis accept the partian plan and the Palestinians reject it m and I I
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think this is an important point because a lot of it is kind of nitpick people nitpick the boundaries and all this and the other one in reality it's the
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principle of the issue I mean it's the principle of you're going to come in here and tell us what is our's not
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exactly I mean from a Palestine perspective under the Covenant of the League of Nations which supposedly
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governed the mandate system which is enforce up until 1948 and which was in place starting the early 1920s starting
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early 1922 the Mandate for Palestine is adopted um Palestine and other Arab
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provinces of the Ottoman Empire are supposed to be independent countries the Palestinians say how are you establishing this Jewish National home
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in what is supposed to be our independent country you have promised a self-determination we never got it the
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charter of the United Nations takes us a step further and says all colonized peoples have a right to self-determination the Palestinians say
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we're two we're two-thirds of the population we're the overwhelming majority we are the indigenous population on what basis do you take
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more than half of our country and give it to this minority which owns less than 8% of the land so most of Palestine
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including most of the fertile land over 55% is given by the United Nations or or
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or uh is is uh uh established by the United Nations as a Jewish State and the
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remaining 4 some odd perc is to be an Arab State um and the Palestinians refuse this they say it's our country
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you're giving us less than half of it we're 2third of the population the charter says we're entitled to self-determination on what basis do you
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violate those Charter prisions well because the United States and the Soviet Union had the votes in the general assembly and bullied and bribed
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countries uh to go along uh and so the general assembly passes this resolution it ABS does absolutely nothing to
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enforce the resolution to ensure that an Arab State comes into being and from
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1947 onwards what you can call a civil war develops between the two communities
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in Palestine the overwhelming Palestinian majority which had been crushed by the British a few years few years earlier and the Jewish minority
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led by the Zionist movement which had been armed and trained and reinforced by the British and had the support of the
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two great superpowers MH um the the result is an overwhelming Victory long
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before Israel is established in May 1948 long before Arab armies enter for the
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militias of the Zionist movement they overrun Arab cities overrun Arab Villages expel their population such
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that by the time Israel is established on May 15th 1948 over 300,000 Palestinians have been made refugees the
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cities of Jaffa haa ban tiberias safad have been overrun and emptied of their
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Arab population so before the 1948 war between the Arab countries and Israel
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begins Israel has already overrun territories that were supposed to go to the Arab State and the United Nations
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does Absolut absolutely nothing it's perfectly clear that what the superpowers intended was the creation of
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a Jewish State they had no particular interest and absolutely no skin in the
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game as far as an Arab state was concerned nobody lifted a finger the Arab armies enter and the rest of it we
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know Israel eventually it's a it's a close fight uh Israel suffers 6,000
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people killed the Arab Army suffer many more and the Arabs are eventually defeated and there's an armis this there
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are Armistice agreements in 1949 in the meantime Israel is established on May 15th 1948 MH and those and those uh
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300,000 you were saying that who were expelled before the uh Independence 1948 added on to the 400,000 that were
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spelled during the actual War creating I think like 720 is, people we don't know the exact number
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7750 in that range right and that's what was considered some people have said more that's not the point right it's not
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the point the overwhelming majority of the Arab population of what becomes Israel are driven out or forced to flee
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or flee in Terror and this is the and this is a phrase and this is a term that everyone hears called the nakba which is
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the catastrophe and and where everyone is driven out leaving behind I guess a
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few hundred thousand still within the new C uh new state of israela uh and that we'll get to that in a second but
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that's I guess 4748 and then it brings us to the next I guess chapter uh so starting in 48 all the way to 1967 you
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have basically a military uh occupation uh of the Palestinian people within Israel they're they're under military
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rule until 1966 and then brings us to 1967 which is the next uh section of
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your book I guess we talk we could talk here what what happened in 1967 I mean I I I framed these chapters
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the ones we've already talked about and the one that we're about to talk about the 67 chapter as declarations war on
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the Palestinians because what I'm arguing is that this is not just a struggle between two peoples I mean
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there are now two peoples that's not the point it's a struggle first of all in which there's a big fat imperialist
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thumb on the scales in favor first of the Zionist movement and later the state of Israel and that's external Powers
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Yeah that have supported first the Zionist project and then the state of Israel and secondly um you have this
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process of settler colonialism ongoing MH and it's not a fair fight actually
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it's a fight between this this national movement supported by outside powers and the Palestinians who really are
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outgunned and outman they're not outman they're more numerous but they're outgunned uh and they don't have very
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strong support and this is an attack on them is how I see the whole process from 1917 onwards sometimes the actual
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fighting is done by the British as in 1936 to 1939 when they crush this Revolt
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they bring in 100,000 troops the Royal Air Force and so on so forth mostly after that the fighting is done by the
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Israeli Army MH um with this support by external powers and the thing that I try
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and focus on in the 67 chapter is not the well-known details of what happens during the war or the occupation of
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Sinai and the Golan and the w bank and the Gaza Strip in Jerusalem but rather the role of the United States so this is
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an Israeli War it's an Israeli preemptive strike on the Arab countries that have massed their armies but it is
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a war launched by Israel after getting a green light from Washington and from this point on the United States become
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has already become one of the main armors of Israel Israel fights the 67 War mainly with British and French
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weapons but it's already beginning to get us weapons but from 67 on the United States has the big the metaphor of the
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big fat thumb on the scales the United States is supplying the Weaponry with which Israel maintains absolute military
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superiority over all of its enemies combined and it also is providing the
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Diplomatic cover so the United States after the 67 War um Engineers the uh
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adoption by the UN Security Council of a resolution called 242 yeah and that
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basically gives the Israelis what they want it it doesn't force them to withdraw from from the territories they occupied until they get what what they
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want which is recognition of their state by the Arab countries peace treaties and
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an elimination of the Palestinian refugee question the the problems created in 40 48 49 by the occupation of
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most of the Arab state by the expulsion of all these Palestinians these are swept under the rug by 242 and that's
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what Israel wanted so the United States is running diplomatic interference for Israel from 67 onwards just as it has
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been doing in the security Council in the last several months uh preventing the adoption of any resolution that did
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anything that Israel didn't want that's not a new phenomena right uh that's been going on for 50 odd years and it's that
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section I'm sorry the the resolution 242 has been the basis of all negotiations
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everything ever since ever since and it's interesting you bring up we forgot to mention I forgot to mention at the beginning was um you brought up the also
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the right of return this idea of uh the right of return which I think is very important and something that you know
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for Palestinians has been categorically rejected uh from the beginning by Israel by Israel exactly as opposed to let's
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say the ability of of Jews from all over the country to then all over the world all over the world sorry that's what I meant to say uh to be able to return to
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Israel I think maybe could maybe you could speak on that real quick just before we move on back in 1948 uh the
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general assembly um after passing the resolution that you know the partition
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resolution in 1947 uh in the wake of the expulsion of these hundreds of thousands of
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Palestinians passes uh un General Assembly resolution 194 which calls for the right of Return of these of
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Palestinian refugees the right of return and compensation this is this is one of the many things that swept under the rug
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by 242 it talks about a just resolution of the palestin of the refugee problem MH it doesn't say how and why it doesn't
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talk about return or or restitution or compensation it simply says a just solution that can mean anything and they
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don't even mention Palestinians as in so many of these International documents which determine the fate of Palestine
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and the people pans are not consulted or mentioned nobody asked them about the Mandate nobody asked them about the B
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for declaration nobody ask them about 242 they don't exist they're not at the table and that's the situation today and
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that's been the situation for the Palestinians pretty much since the beginning there are exceptions um the
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Osa negotiations the Madrid peace conference and so on we'll get to those too I know and it's interesting with the 242 just uh it's interesting you
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mentioned that they weren't at the table negotiating the language and things because the language is what's pointed to a lot of the times
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for example the territor question so the language is withdraw from territories as
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opposed to all the territor exactly so they can point say it just says from territory so they can withdraw from a few but leave the rest that was
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Ambassador Goldberg Lord caran are the US ambassador to the United Nations the
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British permanent representative Lord kidan and Aban the Israeli foreign minister are the who's in New York I
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mean my father worked for the United Nations secretaria and his job was was in what was then called United political
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Security Council PSP whatever a political and Security Council Affairs
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division of the secretari so his job was to sit in the security Council behind the under secretary and provide the
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materials necessary for them so I I knew I was following this stuff I was in the council chamber uh throughout the June
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War for example as a in the visitors Gallery uh watching this happened uh and I talk about this in the book actually a
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little bit um and this is a resolution drafted by the United States Britain and Israel to serve Israeli interests
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essentially U later on in November I was there in June by November then they drafted it the same process was going on
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okay well I guess we can keep moving then I S cover 1967 uh what so the next the next period
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being the next year being the next chapter being 1982 right right let's go let's get into it I mean one of the
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things about this book um you you you mentioned that I I divided into six chapters one of things I tried to do
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with this book as you said was to show how these historical events affected
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people and I figured the best way to do that was to describe it through the experience of people of myself and for
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earlier people uh for earlier periods people I knew so I use my uncle's
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Memoirs I use uh what was told to me by my aunts my uncles my parents I use the
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Memoir of my wife's uh grandfather things like that I use me of people I
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knew uh and I use conversations I had with people and then my own personal experiences to show how this affected
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people and uh in the 67 chapter that we just talked about um I start with my own
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experience at the UN in the visitors gallery of the security Council in the 82 chapter and watching a ceasefire
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resolution not be passed why are they not passing a ceas fire resolution well my father later explains it to me and
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that's that's the beginning of that chap in the 82 chapter uh we were in beut uh
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my wife and I we were both uh uh I was teaching at the American University of Beirut I was doing research and I was
24:38
also involved in Palestinian politics and my wife was the editor of the Palestine news agency English language
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bulletin and was in the area being bombed on the first day of the 1982 War
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when Israel invaded Lebanon and eventually besieged Beirut and drove the PLO out and then car uh engineered
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massacres in Palestinian refugee camps uh afterwards MH so I describe in that
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at the beginning of that chapter my own personal experiences you know the bombing beginning my wife is stuck in this neighborhood being bombed I have
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two kids in school one in a school in one place another in a school in another place my wife is pregnant M um I just
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describe that whole per I describe it from a personal perspective how we found out about the Sabra and Cha massacres at
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the end of the war right and so this and this all is I guess around these these events are happening around the bombing
25:27
of Lebanon pursuing the Poo who at the time in Lebanon with the intent of getting rid of the PO and driving them
25:34
out of Lebanon but in the process you know civilians Die Part neighbor entire neighborhood is destroyed almost 20,000
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Palestinians and Lebanese are killed in the course of this Israeli Invasion um and what I talk about in the book is
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that this is not just an Israeli Invasion right before the then defense minister Ariel Sheron launches this War
25:56
uh uh he he goes to Washington mhm and he talks to the Secretary of State General hay and gets an American green
26:03
light for driving the PLO out of Lebanon for driving the syrians out of Lebanon
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and for creating a Lebanese government that will do what Israel wants sign a peace treaty with Israel um and this is
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seen as an American objective for Cold War reasons it has to do with with you know sympathy for Israel and sympathy
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for Israel's version of its conflict with the Palestinians but it's mainly seen as
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these are Soviet proxies and you know hay and and President Reagan were people who saw everything in Cold War black and
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white terms um so Sheron basically sells them a bill of goods um and that is
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That's the basis for the war it's not not just an Israeli War it's an Israeli American war right it's a war fought
26:44
with the endorsement of the United States with weapons supplied by the United States and with American diplomatic support which prevents the
26:51
war being ended on anything but Israel's terms does that sound familiar it's exactly what's happened dozens of times
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since 1967 so I think if you do not bring in that International Dimension whether in
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82 or 67 or the war in Gaza uh you're seeing things from a perspective which
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is false essentially it's leaving out everything it leaves out everything really not everything it leaves out so many important factors that you
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understand nothing right and I think it's important point that you bring up the Cold War because I mean I don't think people understand how important
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the Cold War was to any decision made on Bo policy in that entire period all the
27:26
way the early 9s andly that really colored everything um from really from
27:32
World War II on right I mean that it's one of the reasons the United States and the Soviet Union support the partition
27:37
resolution 1947 they each think they'll get cold war Advantage by doing it they're on the same side strangely but
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they're doing it for Cold War reasons same thing happens in 56 when they're on the same side opposing Israel Britain
27:50
and France when they invade Egypt again for Cold War reasons and that holds as you say right up to the early '90s when
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the Cold War briefly ends we're back we're back in a cold war but anyway in a hot war in Ukraine actually yeah uh and
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I I guess I guess just to piggyback on that so the PLO is driven out of Lebanon uh in the process and this is I think an
28:10
interesting point that you bring up uh I've heard you bring up in other interviews the PLO is driven out of Lebanon and what you Lebanon has no more
28:17
PLO but Hezbollah exactly Rises right after so and I heard you bring this up in an interview with regards to what's
28:23
happening today where even secret secretary uh Lloyd Austin bringing up this idea that uh you know you can by by
28:30
killing civilians and all this you may win a a battle as opposed but strategically in the long term that's
28:36
not going to help the actual you know on the contrary I mean Israel has suffered enormously from the blowback of the
28:44
Lebanon invasion of 1982 um it drove the PLO leadership and
28:49
and its military forces out of Lebanon but it by killing 20,000 people I mean
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people say the end of the war was the the the the part of the PLO it was the death of 20,000 people the Ming of tens
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of thousands of others and the creation among Lebanese of deep enduring resentments that produced hisbah it
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wasn't the Palestinians who produced it it wasn't the Soviets it wasn't you know the syrians or the Iranians it was the
29:14
Grievances created by the way in which Israel operated in Lebanon from the moment they crossed the border and had
29:20
been operating actually before that um and that's where you get this force that people talk about as if it's some Golem
29:27
or some you know robot or Monster well this is a product of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in fact
29:33
Barak later on defense minister of Israel later on prime minister of Israel said there was no hisbah before we came
29:40
we created it it was a result of our occupation um he has the Habit sometimes of saying things that are true as our
29:47
other Israeli Prime Ministers another one has been saying entirely quite perceptive things about this war on Gaza
29:54
so has Barack um they weren't so perceptive when they were prime minister
29:59
well I guess that brings us to the next I guess the next period which would be you have 1987 to 1980 I'm sorry 1995 um
30:06
so I guess yeah a lot lot happened there I guess we could maybe you could start off what you think would uh be worth
30:12
mentioning well I mean it's this is a little harder to fit into the into the
30:18
into the um framework that I used which is a war a war on Palestine but what I'm
30:23
describing here is the so-call peace process um um and this is something that
30:29
I was intimately acquainted with because I was a an adviser to the Palestinian
30:36
delegation in the Madrid peace talks of 1991 and I continued in the negotiations
30:43
that went on for nine different additional sessions in Washington up to the summer of
30:48
1993 um and I was in touch with people who have been involved thereafter and so I was I knew exactly what was going on
30:56
and what I try and argue in this chapter is that the so-called Oso peace process
31:03
was in fact not a process designed to bring peace between Palestinians and
31:08
Israelis um what President Bush George HW and secretary Baker envisaged at
31:14
Madrid was to bring about a comprehensive peace settlement between
31:20
Israel and the Arab countries and in fact they achieved the peace treaty between Israel and Jordan and they were
31:25
very close at least twice to peace treaty with Syria and Lebanon um you can
31:31
read the accounts in particular of the Syrian of the Israeli negotiator adamar rabinovich um who makes it very clear
31:39
that they were this close and every account says that so to to their credit
31:44
um the US government were really trying to achieve peace between the Arab countries in Israel and as I say they
31:50
achieved one treaty or helped to achieve one treaty and another was very very close failed but it was very with the
31:56
Palestinians however that wasn't the case we were not allowed in our negotiations to deal with a final
32:04
resolution of this conflict nor a peace treaty nor the establishment of a Palestinian State nor borders nor ending
32:12
the occupation nor stopping Israeli colonization of the occupied territories nor the issue of Jerusalem nor the issue
32:18
of refugees nor the issue of water in other words all the important issues were off the table all we were allowed
32:24
to talk about were interim self-government Arrangements under a continuing Israeli military
32:30
occupation and in a circumstance in which Israeli occupation sorry uh
32:36
colonization and settlement and appropriation of land and expansion of their footprint would continue and when
32:42
we brought up in the negotiations how can you ask us to negotiate over a a pie
32:47
which the Israelis are eating while we negotiate the Americans said nothing even though in their original documents
32:52
and the original guarantees and and and and the the framework for the
32:58
negotiations supposedly that the status quo was supposed to be maintained but the United States wasn't willing to do that essentially this was designed to
33:06
prevent Israel from having to make the hard decisions about ending its occupation about stopping the the
33:12
colonization of the occupied territories and about recognizing an independent Palestinian State those things were
33:19
never part of the negotiations no those will be dealt within final status negotiations well they still haven't been dealt with and we're talking about
33:25
negotiations that started in 199 MH and it and I think within that context too you have things like for example 1993 a
33:32
lot of people think oh Oslo they think like said 1993 the Declaration princip principles the the shaking hands on the
33:38
White House lawn everyone's like well why hasn't this solved everything you know yasat and Yak Rin they shake hands
33:43
and everyone's like well there it is peace they I think they both won Nobel prizes everything's everything's figured out but that's really just one tiny
33:50
little part of it and even then yaser arat kind of did that on his own right and around well he had support from the
33:56
Palestinians right over overwhelming majority of Palestinians because they believed it would lead to a Palestinian State an an
34:03
occupation and an ENT settlement but if you look at what they agreed on right in Oslo and that was sealed on the White
34:09
House lawn the Palestinians the PLO recognized Israel the state of Israel
34:14
was recognized by the PLO the PLO previously had renounced violence so on the one hand you give up
34:22
your your your resort to violence and you give up your your reluctance to
34:27
recog recognize Israel Israel didn't recognize the right of the Palestinians to a state it never did that it said we
34:34
recognize that the the the PLO represents the Palestinian people and will'll negotiate with it what are you
34:40
negotiating for well as Rabin said in his last speech U before the knesset before he was murdered because in the
34:46
eyes of the right wing he'd gone too far and they killed him um as he said in his last speech uh what we're offering the
34:53
Palestinians is less than a state and we intend to maintain security control over over the Jordan River Valley therefore
34:59
over the envelope within which this so-called less than a state would operate so Israel to this day has never
35:07
recognized a fully independent Sovereign the right of the Palestinians to a fully independent sovereign state even other
35:13
Prime Ministers like Barak and who later on did negotiate never went beyond what
35:19
Rabin said we will keep security control and this will ultimately be less than state so it's not really a sovereign state it's like a a glorified Bantan M
35:27
and that that's the unequal the unequal nature of the Oslo Accords Israel is recognized by the
35:33
Palestinians who give up violence Israel doesn't renounce violence Israel doesn't end its occupation Israel doesn't
35:39
recognize the Palestinians have a right to self-determination in statehood and Israel doesn't stop eating up the the
35:46
disputed territory the occupied territory of the West Bank and East Jerusalem it continues to settle and and
35:52
and deprive the Palestinians of space for a putative Palestinian stay and you and you brought you brought up the B two
35:58
stands and this idea of carving up the area I want to get back to that but before we do uh I I wanted to just just
36:04
to wrap it up the the chapter begins in 1987 which has some significance because it's the first inapa right which is
36:10
basically uh you know obviously the Palestinians kind of coming together and kind of basically just kind of saying
36:16
you know this is enough and it becomes a protest movement in contrast to the second inapa which we'll get to it's
36:22
more it's more I don't want to say completely peaceful but more peaceful than the original one and that's kind of
36:27
this beginning of the the tide being turned towards people realizing that the Palestinians have a claim publicly and
36:34
internationally towards uh you know personhood nationhood all those types of things correct absolutely right yeah um
36:40
the first TI father is really important in a number of ways I mean I talk about it as one of the first real successes of
36:47
the Palestinian national movement because as you said I think it establishes palestin personhood in the eyes of much of the world um it was
36:55
largely nonviolent it wasn't nonviolent but it was largely it was mass-based it involved strikes and demonstrations and
37:01
boycotts and all kinds of quite Innovative Grassroots means of
37:07
protesting against a military occupation that had gone on for 20 years I think it's really important intifa means
37:13
Uprising Uprising against what Uprising against military occupation that's what it means uh it the term has been
37:20
distorted uh by people ill-intentioned poorly informed people
37:26
into some kind of claim that oh this is this is a call for genocide not inana
37:31
means rising up rising up against what is now 56 years of military occupation three generations have grown up under
37:38
the boo heel of Israeli Soldiers with no justice no rights all decisions that are
37:44
important are made by Israeli military and the Israeli military and the Israeli government and that's what people have
37:49
risen up against that's what resistance is against um and that is that's just
37:56
it's vital to understand understand that um you any military occupation generates resistance
38:04
generates a desire to to to throw off uh that the chains uh that military
38:10
occupation entails um and that was also the case with the second antifa which was much more violent right and the
38:16
second antifa is a comes as a result of those failed Oso uh negotiations and what resulted from that and I wanted to
38:23
just touch on that real quick you mentioned the banto stands part of the Oslo negotiations with Oso 2 uh there they carved up basically the
38:30
occupied territories to a b and cact Israel having control over C uh the
38:36
Palestinians having limited control over a and then they joint control over B is exactly yeah so it's basically literally
38:42
carved up into what would be kind of BTO stands reference to South Africa and then each of those areas is further
38:48
carved up um and this is where you get the second intifa because people are
38:54
very happy when in 1988 the poo adopts a program of recognition of Israel
39:00
recognition of the of the principle of partition uh renunciation of violence
39:06
and is its willingness to enter into negotiations the negotiations then start in 1991 in in Madrid and they're
39:13
continued throughout the decade of the 90s they're deliriously happy when Arafat signs this thing in 1993 now
39:20
there are many people oppose they said we should never have renounced violence we should never have recognized Israel
39:26
we should never have have abandoned our claim to the entirety of Palestine and these people end up in Hamas and other
39:32
rejectionist groups but the overwhelming majority is supportive at this point 19
39:38
early 1990s 1993 they support the PLO they support what Arafat has done but
39:44
then over the next s years as the Oslo Accords are implemented and further
39:50
negotiated they realize not only what you've said Which is far from getting an
39:55
ENT occupation and an ENT to settlement occupation is further entrenched and we are locked into these small areas with
40:02
Israeli checkpoints and walls and so so for and Gates and all that stuff but uh
40:08
we are much more restricted and actually much poorer at the end of this by the end of the 90s than we were in the early
40:15
'90s or before the first in Palestinian GDP per capita goes down Palestinian
40:20
movement is restricted and further restricted and further restricted you can't go from the West Bank to Gaza
40:25
anymore you can't go to into Israel anymore you can't go into Jerusalem anymore and Palestinians realize our
40:31
situation is considerably worse as a result of Oslo than it was under direct occupation and we supposedly have a
40:38
Palestinian Authority which has no sovereignty which has no jurisdiction and which has very little authority in
40:44
fact Israel is the ultimate Authority Under a much tighter regime of control
40:50
than had been the case before the first intifa so public opinion has soured and that's what one of the many reasons that
40:56
the second intifa is so violent and people people essentially all over the I
41:01
was living in Jerusalem for part of these years uh on and off from the early 90s uh on uh into the mid 90s and I
41:11
could see these things changing before my eyes I try and describe them in this chapter to understand what happens in
41:16
the 2000s you have to see how Palestinians feel that they've been completely snookered far from getting a
41:23
situ an improved situation they got a much worse situation and that's where get the second intifa the second intifa
41:28
leads to an Israeli Crackdown um which is devastating many Israelis are killed
41:34
by Palestinian violence many more Palestinians are killed by Israeli violence the ratio is like 3 or four to
41:40
one right uh of casualties um it's one of the largest civilian death tolls in
41:45
Israeli history and it's one of the largest Palestinian death tolls in Palestinian history um the the period of
41:51
the second in it's it's traumatic it's nothing compared to what we're seeing now in Gaza not nothing but it's not not
41:58
on the scale of what we're seeing in Gaza but um it changes everything and you you start with the I guess the
42:04
second and Def beginning in 2000 you go all the way to 2014 because then there are multiple operations by the IDF and
42:11
everything to kind of crack down with all these you know kind of ominous names and everything into them and those
42:16
mainly directed at Gaza right mainly directed at Gaza and those all happen in that same time period correct and then
42:21
end 2014 in your book um okay well that covers the chapters that you had in your
42:27
book I I just kind of wanted to to touch on some of the uh I guess I guess ideas and everything that you kind of bring up
42:33
um one I guess uh being that uh there there's this common I guess thread you
42:39
hear uh the counter being that the Israelis I'm sorry the the Palestinians reject it's the the term is rejectionism
42:46
right but they reject everything that that is kind of uh offered by Israel um
42:52
I think from from reading your book it seems that uh a lot of it has to do with what's being offered right which is
42:57
never really talked about the US and Israel comes to the table with an offer and it's rejected uh I I was wondering if you could talk a little bit on I mean
43:04
this goes back to the 30s and I could talk about the 1930s or the 1940s I've explained why Palestinians rejected the
43:11
partition plan there were a few who wanted to accept it King abdalah wanted the Palestinians to accept it because he
43:17
figured he'd get a big chunk of Palestine there would never be a Palestinian State uh there would be a Jordanian occupation which in fact there
43:24
was of a chunk of the area that was supposed to be part part of the Palestinian State um so i' I've given
43:30
some of the reasons for Palestinian rejection in the in the previous periods um Palestinians were never offered
43:35
anything until Oslo so it's not like they had anything to reject they didn't exist they were not recognized by the
43:42
United States until they jump through a bunch of Hoops um and those Hoops I think one can talk about the United
43:49
States said Palestinians have to renounce violence recognize Israel and accept two Security Council resolution
43:55
242 well Security Council resolution 2 I negates Palestinian rights it negates
44:00
the right of return it negates the right of statehood that the 47 partition plan established um it negates a variety of
44:08
other and it doesn't even mention the Palestinians we're supposed to accept a resolution drafted uh to to fit Israeli
44:15
deserada and and extremely unfavorable to us uh and to recognize Israel without
44:21
Israel reciprocally recognizing the Palestinian right of self-determination so what would they re reting they
44:27
rejecting an extremely unfavorable proposal when they went ahead and accepted 242 in 1998 and 1988 sorry when
44:36
they went ahead and renounced violence when they went ahead and recognized Israel when they went ahead and accepted
44:41
the principle of partition they still didn't get M an Israeli recognition or
44:47
an American recognition of the right to an end of to occupation an end to
44:52
settlement and colonization and acceptance of Palestinian self-determination state Ood and
44:57
sovereignty that's still not on the table right I mean if you look at what Israel and the United States talk about now I mean let's leave aside Israel if
45:04
you look at what the United States talk about talks about now up to the present they're not talking about full sovereignty I haven't heard an American
45:11
states person say end to occupation and to settlement withdraw the 34 of a million settlers who have uh uh
45:20
uh colonized the occupied territories that that's not there that language is never used well you don't have end to
45:27
the the partialization and bantus bantz of the occupied territories you don't
45:33
have statehood you're talking about something much less than sovereignty much less than self-determination so the
45:39
Palestinians are rejecting something that's extraordinarily unfavorable to them and is drafted by the Israelis and
45:44
their American friends to give Israel everything it wants and on that point it's interesting because the common the
45:50
common response would be it's for security reasons you think of like the famous golden mayir uh quote where it's
45:56
like if the Arabs put down their their weapons we we won't have violence if the Israel put down their weapons we won't
46:01
have Israel uh I I think that's a common thing and and I was wondering if you could speak on that idea I mean if Golda
46:08
was good at anything she was good at PR she was brilliant I mean I heard once heard her speak When I Was An
46:13
undergraduate um she too but too she also mentioned the fact that that Palestinians don't
46:19
exist the whole point that that's the whole point there is no acceptance by Israel of Palestinian of of of of
46:27
Palestinian peoplehood as equal to Israeli peoplehood in fact Israeli law
46:33
laws with constitutional Force say quite the opposite only the Jewish people have the right of
46:39
self-determination in Israel or in the land of Israel well when you say that you're saying there is no Palestinian
46:44
people or at least they don't have the rights of self the right of self-determination that a people would enjoy under the UN Charter so what is on
46:53
offer is is essentially accepting your status as a accepting your status as a
46:59
as a as subordinate to MH uh uh uh the Israeli to Israel um and I I think that
47:06
I think that all of these beautiful PR phrases that the Israelis use have to be
47:12
deconstructed I mean what generous offer was Barack making Jerusalem East Jerusalem as a capital of
47:20
a Palestinian state it should be a natural obvious uh part of a deal Israel
47:26
is not willing to accept that neither Barak and I mean we're talking about the Israeli leaders RAB Barak and later om
47:34
who were the most forthcoming none of them none of them uh put on the table or
47:39
accepted some of the basics for Independence sovereignty and self-determination for the Palestinians so what are the Palestinians being
47:46
rejectionist about they're being they're rejecting their subordination to second class status they're rejecting
47:52
continuation of occupation if you say we're going to maintain security control it means you're still under occupation
47:58
right you we'll control your population registry we'll control your entry and exit we'll control your imports and
48:03
exports we'll control your currency which is the current situation uh in into it unto eternity and that's
48:10
basically what's more or less what's been on offer now this issue of security
48:15
if you hold a people down they will with your boot heel they will bite your ankle
48:21
now removing the boot heel is not going to lead to love and understanding and peace there has to be a process to get
48:27
away from occupation to get away from colonization you have to decolonize and
48:33
that requires changes among Israelis of which there's no sign whatsoever except among a minority of Israelis um and and
48:41
that's where you're going to finally get security not by saying we will hold you down until you say uncle and do exactly
48:47
as we please which is what Israel basically says their insecurity is created by their security mhm or their
48:55
their their drive for ultim security which means holding the Palestinians under this awful 56y year military
49:02
occupation right or keeping Palestinians whose ancestors left from ever returning
49:07
to their Homeland right and it's interesting you bring that up because I I think a lot of times when there is
49:12
obviously more conflict and violence and things you you start hearing people talk of well what what what should we do uh
49:19
or they talk about how impossible would be for a two-state solution in these moments and things like that when it's
49:24
almost it's almost like it's almost counterproductive to even mentioned something like a two-state solution in moments like this because it is
49:29
difficult to do but that doesn't mean that other steps couldn't be taken towards decolonization to eventually get
49:35
to a point where you can discuss longer term Solutions like that when when right now the longer term Solutions aren't
49:41
what's on the table anyway um and conization is in things like you know stopping a bombing stopping different
49:48
things and then getting to another point but it's almost like a red herring in a way sometimes moments like this I mean
49:54
as I as I try and say in the book the important thing in my view is not what
50:00
form the final resolution of this takes whether one state or two states or
50:07
bational state or or cantons or Confederation to my way of thinking
50:14
that's not the important thing the important thing is the establishment of a principle of absolute equality that everybody has the same
50:21
rights now there's an Israeli people many Palestinians don't recognize that by the way right there's a Palestinian
50:27
people it's not just Israelis don't recognize Israeli law Israeli Constitution says there's no Palestinian
50:34
people so excuse me the Palestinians have actually recognized Israel the PLO recognized Israel that's done are do
50:41
many Palestinians not recognize it maybe but leave aside whatever Israelis think their knesset has in 2018 passed into
50:49
law a what is it a law with constitutional Force which basically says the Palestinians don't exist and
50:55
have no rights in this country basic law of exactly basic law Israel
51:00
nation state of the Jewish people je people sorry 2018 M um you got to dismantle those kinds of things before
51:07
you can even talk about anything right talk about one state two states it doesn't matter what you talk about you
51:12
have to have equality you have to have M Mutual recognition right and I I am i'
51:18
would be the first one to admit that 75 years of dispossession and 56 years of
51:23
military occupation of ethnic cleansing of massacres uh the slaughter that's going on in Gaza has probably led
51:31
Palestinians to be unfavorable towards Israel I'm the first one to admit that and I would also accept that Israelis
51:38
have a negative view of Palestinians because a lot of Israelis have been killed many many many many many fewer
51:44
than Palestinians but many Israelis I mean the Israeli death toll on the 8th 9th and 10th of October was the largest
51:51
Israeli civilian death toll since 1948 it it was it was it was it was a a
51:58
traumatic shock to Israel um so I I'd be the first one to accept not only that
52:04
Palestinians have reasons to have grievances but that also Israelis do but these structural things M like the
52:13
nation state law like the rank discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel since the state was
52:18
create created the dozens of laws that discriminated against Palestinians inside Israel Palestinian citizens of
52:24
the state the way the municipalities are treated way access to all kind of things land
52:32
and so they have voting rights yes of course but they don't have equal rights all of these structural things have to
52:39
be looked at before you can even talk about a settlement and any lasting
52:44
resolution has to be based on these principles of equal nobody seems to want to address those things nor Israelis nor
52:51
all of Israel's powerful supporters in the Western countries and on that point you you talk we talked about this kind
52:56
of earlier but uh you mentioned the the circumstances under which Israel was uh was created and the trauma that came
53:04
from you know the Holocaust is one of the one of the big drivers of the early right booms and immigration what if you
53:10
you believe that that has an effect for example Gabor mate has been talking a lot recently on this trauma of the
53:15
actual you know generational trauma Collective trauma of a people and how they respond to things like you know the
53:23
conflicts with the Palestinians and all do you do you think that that is also a part of policy and different reactions
53:28
over the past few Generations in Israel versus against I mean there's no question um
53:34
that historical trauma um of the Jewish people uh going
53:41
back even before the Holocaust and the way it's embedded in Jewish religious tradition I mean the
53:47
destruction of the temple things like that are still Revisited annually in Jewish religious ritual so these are
53:54
things that that are our embedded trauma if you want um I mean the most obviously
54:00
the most Salient is the Holocaust but there's a lot of other things I mean and people talking about this obsessively in
54:07
Israel um the mo the most the largest number of of Jews killed since the
54:12
Holocaust um Kish Pam is is evoked again and again and again the 1905 Pam in
54:19
which dozens and dozens of innocent Jewish residents of kishia were murdered
54:25
and people were raped and homes were looted and burned and so on clearly those traumas historical traumas almost
54:33
all of which have to do with Christian Europe's treatment of the Jews over Millennia not even centuries Millennia
54:39
you know the Jews are expelled from England the Jews are expelled from France the Jews are expelled from Spain the Jews are expelled from Portugal
54:46
we're talking over hundreds of years in the medieval period um these are traumatic events that you know anybody
54:53
with any sense of Jewish Heritage um is alive to and the the the the the
54:59
culmination obviously is the Holocaust so to to deny that these are important
55:04
um drivers of the way in which the first Zionist settlers and right up to the
55:11
present Israeli population see things would be foolish obviously these things are there it should be noted most of
55:17
this is the result of the treatment of Jews by Christian Europe where there difficult relations between Jews and Muslims yes throughout history not much
55:24
in Palestine in fact almost none in Palestine but yes but nothing like Christian Europe I mean where were Jews
55:30
expelled from entire countries right in the AR world before 1948 before Zionism
55:36
before the establishment of a Jewish State at the expense of Arabs that created all kinds of backlash and
55:42
horrible results for Jewish communities in the Arab world but before Zionism you don't have the same kind of Jew hatred
55:49
which is the core of anti-Semitism that is a feature of Christian doctrine up
55:54
until the second Vatican Council the Jews as a people are responsible for the killing of Jesus that's the doctrine of
56:00
the Catholic church until Vatican 2 we're talking about in the 60s um there's nothing like that is there
56:06
anti-Semitism in the Muslim world of course there is was there is there yes has it been accentuated by the conflict
56:12
of course it has but what most of the trauma that we're talking about is a
56:18
result of the persecution of Jews in Europe up to and including the Holocaust
56:23
um and that's unfortunately been transferred or into uh uh motivation uh
56:30
for Israelis seeing the Palestinians as only the latest tormentors of the Jewish
56:35
people with the Palestinians if the if the if the settlers had been Danes Danes people from Denmark had come
56:43
with a national and a settler Colonial project and had tried to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians the
56:48
Palestinians would have resisted and they would have their their opposition to the DS would not have been
56:54
anti-christian right it would have been against occupation and and settlement and colonization and that's what's
57:01
driving the Palestinians but it is coded it is read by Israelis as these are the latest in a long line of people who just
57:07
hate us because we're Jews no the problem is what you're doing to the indigenous population right the problem
57:13
is you're substituting yourself for a people that was already there the problem is how you treat that people
57:18
that's the problem right and the the the ability of a construct of reality to
57:25
elide ignore obliterate those basic core facts the real drivers of this struggle
57:34
is a is a work of public relations genius you know every one of these little gems of ABA Ian and the gold
57:42
Mayer the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity are are PR genius I have to say it because
57:51
they managed to completely obscure what's actually going on on the ground which is a people being replaced by
57:58
another people um as jabotinsky said the transformation of Palestine into the
58:03
land of Israel that is what was intended and that is what has happened or what is meant to happen and so I I think that I
58:12
I think that this is this is beginning to be chipped away M I think we're beginning to see a turning in the way in
58:18
which people see Israel Israel's Behavior the absolute mendacity of its spokespeople I mean everybody can see
58:25
that they're lying Liars lying right it's just it's it's hard not to see that
58:31
now unless you're a died in the will supporter of Israel who doesn't believe anything anybody else says and will believe whatever the Israeli
58:37
spokespersons and politicians say is Gospel truth in other words if you have a brain in your head and you're looking at social media and you're watching
58:43
what's happening you're listening to what they say is happening you can tell there's a disconnect this is not true
58:48
this is what's happening and that's what's beginning to happen right and then the only thing you'll hear in in
58:54
the other in response is you know point fingers at let's say Hamas or political groups which kind of miss the bigger
59:00
picture not to say Obviously what Hamas did was terrible and what what's happened was was terrible but it misses
59:05
the bigger picture of everything we've talked about that doesn't have to do with the culprits of a horrible where
59:11
does Hamas come from right what is Hamas a response to it's a response to many things but it
59:17
has a history goes back to 1987 if you don't understand its history if you don't understand where this rejectionism
59:23
comes from if you don't understand the not just the religious but mainly the political drivers behind it and how what
59:31
Israel has done has in fact reinforced right the rejectionist and the militant
59:37
elements in Palestinian politics you understand nothing right um the Israeli
59:43
body politic is perfectly aware of the fact that the Netanyahu government and
59:48
some other Israeli governments over the last few years have in effect encouraged the divisions in Palestinian
59:55
policy politics and in effect reinforced hamas's control over the Gaza Strip as a
1:00:01
means of avoiding a unified Palestinian national movement that could demand a Palestinian State netanyahu's said that explicitly
1:00:09
again and again and again so it's not like a secret and Israelis have CAU to the fact that that helped to create the situation that produced October 7th if
1:00:17
you're allowing the Claris to bring in suitcases of cash to support the Hamas regime with your knowledge and
1:00:23
understanding and agreement then clearly you have a false understanding of what
1:00:28
Hamas is right um and if you don't understand that there's this whole set
1:00:34
of Palestinian grievances the the population of the Gaza Strip are not the original natives of the city of Gaza or
1:00:40
the city of Kanan Yunis or the city of Raa 75 80% of them are people driven into that area by Israel in 1948 as part
1:00:48
of the ethnic cleansing of the Southern parts of what is now Israel that's the problem that's the core of the problem
1:00:53
it's not Hamas or not Hamas that's a result of the problem it's not to say that Hamas is right or wrong and that's
1:01:00
not the issue you've got to understand where they come from you've got to understand that this this tendency this
1:01:06
militant tendency was in fact encouraged at different phases by your government I mean the stories about the establishment
1:01:13
of Hamas in the late 1980s are by Israelis not just by Palestinians
1:01:19
whereby it was clear that Israeli intelligence was happy to see arrival to the PLO the PLO was seen as the main
1:01:26
enemy of Israel and anything that weakened the the PLO or the divided Palestinian ranks same policy that
1:01:32
Netanyahu has followed more recently was seen as a good thing and so you had car
1:01:37
loads busloads of thugs of the islamia the Islamic grouping which later became
1:01:44
Hamas trucked bust across Israel to beat up PLO supporters in the West Bank
1:01:49
universities in the 80s and in the late 70s um you had a you had a support of
1:01:56
Islamic tendency in Gaza as a means of weakening the Palestinians dividing the Palestinians and that continued even
1:02:01
after Hamas is founded in 1987 well let's keep them divided eventually Israelis Israeli intelligence folks came
1:02:08
to realize this may not be such a good idea but at the outset there's a huge amount of evidence by Israelis I mean
1:02:16
couple books by Israeli analysts who talk about this in detail um and so I I
1:02:22
don't think you can ignore all of that I don't think you can ignore the fact that um by weakening the PLO by never
1:02:28
negotiating in my view in good faith with the PLO by never implementing even the miserable faulty agreements that
1:02:36
were made with the PLO Israel in effect encouraged rejectionism encouraged militancy and I think that's an
1:02:43
important point that the violence that's happening is the symptom of a bigger issue which is a political issue exact
1:02:48
and so a solution isn't going to be a violent Sol it's going to be a political solution um if there is to be one solve
1:02:54
the political issue I mean I just to speak to this I I think there's a belief
1:03:00
certainly among Israelis that force and only force is the resolution is the solution to this there such a belief
1:03:06
exists among some Palestinians too by the way um I think that's a delusion and a snare and and and and a dangerous
1:03:13
falsehood uh the difference of course is that the overwhelming weight of force is on the Israeli side but what Hamas
1:03:20
showed is that it has an amazing resilience and capability sometimes exercised in
1:03:27
horrific ways and that you know force is not going to be sufficient um no matter
1:03:34
how overwhelming overwhelmingly Superior Israel is and force is not going to be sufficient no matter how many allies
1:03:40
Hamas may think it has um so I I mean I
1:03:45
argue in the book um uh for different aspects of what should be
1:03:52
Palestinian strategy um and I I I don't really think that uh in
1:04:00
particular Israel has understood what you just said that sooner or later you have to have some kind of political
1:04:05
Vision that accepts that there are two peoples in this country how that is
1:04:11
worked out I don't know we're not very close to it so in a sense it doesn't really matter um but you have to accept
1:04:18
that the Palestinians have peoplehood and have exactly the same National rights as any other people and that all
1:04:23
kinds of things follow from that you can't say because of our security we have to make you insecure no you can't
1:04:29
say because of our our natural inherent god-given whatever
1:04:34
rights we will infringe on your rights and we will have this and you can't have that when you say equality it has to be
1:04:40
equality of political rights National rights it has to be equality of civil rights and political rights it has to be
1:04:45
equality of religious rights you can't say we will take over uh this mosque because it once belonged to us or
1:04:52
because it has the you can't do those things there has to be a certain resp respect um both of Jewish and Christian
1:04:59
and Muslim religious rights which is simply not the case today right uh and that's just one of a whole Litany of
1:05:06
ways in which rights are being infringed and that's you have to change all of that yeah and it's uh there's actually
1:05:11
I'm sure you're familiar with Mahmud mamdani's work on and and his him talking about separating the nation from
1:05:17
the state right in a way and and I think he he uses a comparison to South Africa and how the only re the only way they
1:05:23
got any success was because everyone came to the and they separated this idea of the white Nation being the driver and
1:05:30
the owner of the state and allowing other people in um yeah but I guess that
1:05:35
uh that's a whole another thing I guess get into well I I think South Africa and actually Ireland Ireland yeah are two
1:05:42
cases of settler colonialism where we may see some basis
1:05:48
for moving towards a resolution uh which is a Pacific one which is a one involving
1:05:56
acceptance um I don't know that we're there in either case in fact I don't think we're there in either case and
1:06:02
there's a hard Road a ho ahead of them the Irish and the and the South Africans
1:06:09
but and they they entail there every settler Colonial project is different
1:06:14
Zionism is completely different than every other one um in the case of Palestine is different for multiple
1:06:19
reasons I mean Ireland's a very important place and South Africa is a very important place but it's not the center of devotion for three Global
1:06:26
monotheisms um it's not neither of them is they're both extremely strategically important but they're not as
1:06:32
strategically important as Palestine historically um so it's harder it's a
1:06:37
harder case Palestine and Israel obviously but I think that looking at
1:06:42
those kinds of ways in which settler Colonial uh uh
1:06:49
situations uh were if not resolved moved towards resolution might help us think
1:06:54
you know more creative in terms of Palestine and Israel okay I guess we should wrap it up you're busy
1:07:00
you're busy guy thank you for having us up here I I I wanted to commend you on I guess the book and and also its its
1:07:05
personal history which I thought was great uh I guess I think that really helped kind of uh make it make it more
1:07:11
um digestible and and captivating uh is there is there something that kind of drove you to to yeah well I the the the
1:07:18
main I mean I got enormous help from my editor from my agent in making the book
1:07:24
more relatable and and and in pushing me to to to bring in personal stuff so that
1:07:29
people could understand how what I was talking about historically affected people but the main person who did that
1:07:35
was really my son who was a playwright and said you know enough already writing books for other boring books for other
1:07:41
historians write something that you know normal people can read and uh he he he
1:07:46
pushed me very very hard my I have to say my editor also she was wonderful and pushing me in that direction so was my
1:07:52
agent they they helped the shape this the form the book takes where every chapter begins with something personal
1:07:58
and and all of it as much as I could incorporates you know family material
1:08:03
material that that is about people uh rather than you know dry diplomatic or
1:08:09
strategic you know history oh that's nice your son your son giving you Guff has help helped shape it huh that's a
1:08:15
good after my wife he's my harshest critic there you go all you kids out there giving your parents Guff it's not
1:08:20
for nothing huh perfect living proof here um well one more thing I guess just to kind of end or try to ended I guess
1:08:26
on a more on a positive note I guess what what gives you hope I guess obviously everything is terrible there's been tragedy on both
1:08:34
sides in the last six months has been a what in all of this has given you hope uh with what's happening I guess I mean
1:08:40
look it's very hard to be hopeful sure towards the end of a six month of this
1:08:47
atrocious war on Gaza MH um more Palestinians have been killed in this war the number is close to 33,000
1:08:56
dead and 7 or 8,000 missing undoubtedly dead we're talking 40,000 people killed
1:09:01
60 70,000 people wounded it's the worst atrocity in Palestinian
1:09:07
history matching the level of 1948 um 2 million people almost have
1:09:13
been displaced 750,000 were displaced in 19407 48 49 so it's really hard to talk
1:09:21
about something hopeful if I see anything hopeful in this
1:09:26
it's that I think people the world over especially younger people are for
1:09:32
the first time being being forced to look in real time at atrocities taking
1:09:40
place and are able to come to their own conclusions about this
1:09:45
war and are able to get past the media
1:09:52
and political censorship that is essentially cre created a barrier of lies and disinformation around
1:09:58
Palestine um and you see this all over the world and I just not just talking about demonstrations I'm talking about
1:10:05
the the the the the percentages of people who vote uncommitted or non-committed or whatever in primary
1:10:11
elections I'm talking about dozens and dozens of American politicians saying things that no American politician has
1:10:16
ever said before I'm talking about governments all over the world beginning
1:10:22
to change their policies to my way of thinking that's a reason for hope it doesn't bring back
1:10:28
the 30 uh thousand 40,000 Palestinians who are dead and the thousands of others who were starving to death and may die
1:10:35
probably many of them will die the way things are going it won't bring them back to life uh it may not change the
1:10:42
situation on the ground or the political Horizon for Palestinians for a little
1:10:47
while but sooner or later those factors have to come into into into
1:10:52
play from the beginning this war was one involving the world
1:11:00
involving the great Powers if they are affected this war will be affected if
1:11:06
they begin to change their approach then there are possibilities for change among Palestinians and Israelis if they don't
1:11:14
we will continue to see this war waged on Palestine with Mo many Israelis killed but many many many many many more
1:11:21
Palestinians killed MH and enmity anger and Regal instability caused as has been
1:11:27
happening since the 1930s mhm Regional instability has been created by this war mhm and it is we can see it today Yemen
1:11:36
right uh Syria uh Lebanon uh Iraq uh each of them have their own issues but
1:11:41
they are they're being drawn into a larger Iran being drawn into a larger conflict
1:11:48
um I I'm not hopeful that things will change quickly but I think that these
1:11:55
Transformations especially among young people sooner or later are going to have to have an effect and that gives me a
1:12:01
long range Reason for Hope yeah and just to piggyback on that I think one of the things that I've noticed is people are
1:12:07
are the atrocities are taking place it's been really horrible and hard to watch but people are being forced to have
1:12:13
conversations are being forced to go around the C the the conventional media narrative and and do the research and
1:12:20
have the conversation with people listen look for more voices and I think that to me at least gives me some hope uh you
1:12:27
know through it all and even this right here this is I mean even this and putting this these kinds of voices out
1:12:32
and having these kinds of conversations more often in public as well uh so that's that's what gives me hope but it
1:12:38
is hard and I've taken so much of your time I already feel bad uh but yeah thank you so much would you mind signing
1:12:43
my book not at all this would be this is a big uh this is a huge you know I'm getting kind of Star Struck here so you
1:12:48
get sign the front of my book and and uh this is uh this is you know jeanpier
1:12:54
meetting Elvis oh I wrote down to different people I wanted to that you mentioned I see sorry yeah so so yeah
1:13:00
two it's a good old Tom I guess that's just that's me so I'm just that'd be good yeah pretty cool but I want to
1:13:07
thank you again uh Professor uh khi this was this was really helpful and uh you know I hope I hope you guys enjoyed it
1:13:13
and uh you know I got my signed book and I'll be on my way and let you get your work done thank you very much I'll take
1:13:19
that pen and thank you thanks again not at all thank you for doing this I really appreciate all right
