Video Infoblog: Norman Finkelstein on Israel Palestine
Transcript
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I remember as a kid our fun was to take the magnifying glass bend the light to
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burn to a crisp ants that's the Israelis with the Palestinians being Jewish meant
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being cerebral Einstein Freud Marx lining up along a perimeter
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fence and targeting double amputees sorry that has nothing to do with a Jew
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or Jews I don't feel Israel as a Jewish State I don't I I think it's a lunatic
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state if you lost your capacity to see the innocence of children youve lost your
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mind you're crazy Dr Norman finlin welcome to politics Joe um how would you like to introduce yourself um my name is
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Norman finlin I live in Brooklyn New York and I've studied the Israel
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Palestine conflict since long before you were born and maybe even your father was
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born I started in 1982 uh when Israel invaded
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Lebanon and I've persisted the past four decades and more and for the past 15
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years my focus has been Gaza and I'm the world's leading
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Authority on Gaza by but by virtue of the fact that there isn't anybody else
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so it's a very low bar to be the world's leading Authority a world leading
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Authority in a field of one um which I guess also makes you the the least
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authoritative figure as well as the most um you hit all the nails on the head
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you're obviously British because you're much cleverer with words than Americans
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no I wouldn't go that far um Norm I we'll just get straight into it I mean
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we the media and I use that collectively often talk about the current events in Israel and
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Palestine as beginning on October 7th but of course there is a much longer history much greater context within
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which that attack those attacks took place so I just invite you to tell us
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really about the situation in Palestine particularly in Gaza before October 7th and provide us with um a little bit of
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that context that perhaps has been lacking in the conversation so far well it's always hard to know where
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to begin because where you begin is already taking a political stand so
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unlike my uh Jewish lman I'm not going to start
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3,000 years ago I'm going to give you audience a break and I'll start with the
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first Arab Israeli War which seems to me a reasonable place to begin because
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that's when Gaza became Gaza in the course of the first Arab Israeli War War
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about 300,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled from the area that became Israel and
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they ended up in Gaza and now they constitute as of now they and their
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descendants from 1948 they constitute roughly 80% of
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gaza's population so when we think about Gaza we should remember or bear in mind
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a Point of Departure that a it's an overwhelmingly Refugee population
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refugees from 1948 and their descendants and B it's an overwhelmingly
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child population gaza's 50% children
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classified you know under International standards as a child and that to me is a very important
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point to bear in mind just before I came on with you I downloaded the latest
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report from BET selum BET selum is the Israeli information center for human
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rights in the occupied territories and they just issued a new report the title of which is the state
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of hunger in the Gaza Strip in recent months and its conclusion stay at the
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very outset is let me just get it for you um Israel is
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committing the war crime of starvation in the Gaza Strip so let me just hold it
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up for you it's the Israeli human rights organization that selum Israel's
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committing the war crime of starvation in the Gaza Strip and
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um when we talk about a what's called a man-made or human-made famine in God
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we have to bear in mind that half the victims of this famine half are children
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when you look at images I don't watch digital media on Gaza or even October
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7th because I find it really unbearable but when even you see the
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photographs the photographs from Gaza however arbitrary these photographs are
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they're always overwhelmed with children it is children who are being starved to
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death now in Gaza so those to me are the two points
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of departure overwhelmingly a refugee population a majority child
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population now already from early on the people the expell from Israel who ended
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up in Gaza they were unwilling to acques in their fith and so what you have from
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1949 onwards is a sequence of massacres
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committed against the people of Gaza who as I said were unwilling to acques in
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the Fate that Israel had Meed out to them so if you look at for
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example Benny maris's Border Wars he's an Israeli historian
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he says from 1949 to roughly 1953 Israel
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killed up to 5,000 up to 5,000 pal Palestinian
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refugees both in the West Bank and in Gaza who sought to return to their homes
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to their fields to their families to their neighbors and moris writes 90% of
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them were on armed these were not terrorists these were people who had
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been extrated from their homes and were trying to go back to see their fields
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their families and so forth in 1956 when Israel invades the Sinai in
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collusion with the UK your country and France Israel entered
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Rafa City entered Kan Yunis City lined up lined up
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and shot down dead hundreds of Palestinian men without trial without
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any process forget about doe process just line them up and shot them
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dead you come to 1967 when Israel um occupies Gaza in the course of
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the 1967 war and now the Israelis are again
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determined to suppress repress any Palestinian resistance in Gaza to the
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occupation and under then uh chief of the Israeli Southern command Ariel
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Chiron under Ariel Chiron they commit new massacres in Gaza
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the first in which you are too young to remember but which I witnessed firsthand
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because I was in the West Bank and for occasion in Gaza uh begins in
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1987 in uh jabalia refugee camp in Gaza
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it's an overwhelmingly nonviolent civil resistance by all accounts including my
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own personal account because I was there it's an overwhelmingly nonviolent civil
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resistance the first in Def Israel engages in massive
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brutality to repress it by 1991 Israel institutes in Gaza what it
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called the closure policy and closure is just a euphemism for beginning in
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1991 Israel starts to seal off Gaza from the rest of the World by
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2004 2003 uh very mainstream Israeli figures
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you take uh baroo kimmerling from the Hebrew
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University in Jerusalem he's a senior uhh Professor there he describes Gaza as
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quote the largest concentration camp ever or you take Gora Island who at the
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time was the head of Israel's National Security Council and as far as any human
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being could be from a leftist and very close to a lunatic rtist and gar Island
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very casually observes that Gaza is quote a huge concentration
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camp in 2006 Hamas come comes into Power it's elected in a democratic election
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immediately as it comes into Power Israel imposes this brutal economic
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Siege of Gaza which is then seconded by the US and the EU and basically it meant
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that no one can go in and no one can leave without Israeli permission and few
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and far between were those who could leave according to the South African
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application to the international court of justice the genocide application they
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report that over 300 close to 400
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gazin died because they were unable to leave Gaza in order to obtain better
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medical treatment so no nobody can go out nobody can go in nothing can go out
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nothing can go in at a certain point Israel was keeping Gaza on what they
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called a humanitarian minimum diet which is a
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euphemism for a starvation plus diet and
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they ban chocolate from going into Gaza they ban
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potato chips from going into Gaza they banned notebooks from going into Gaza
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they banned musical instruments from going into Gaza they banned children's
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toys from going into Gaza they banned any spices from going into
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Gaza and they had a policy a calculated policy of keeping God
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just on the brink of economic catastrophe just on the precipice of
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economic catastrophe and then if you fast forward
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to the night before October 7th by that
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point 50% of gin were unemployed
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60% were 60% of Youth were
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unemployed 50% were classified as food
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insecure 80% were living off of Government dolls government
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charity that was gosip now there are two other facts that
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need to be brought into the picture I have left out in my description so far
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that periodically Israel went into Gaza to quote unquote mow the lawn and mo the
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lawn was the expression the Israelis coined for these periodic Hightech
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massacres in Gaza the best known being operation castled in
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20089 operation pillar of Defense in
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2012 operation protective Edge in July August
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2014 and in each of these massacres hundreds and sometimes thousands of
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Palestinians in Gaza were killed hundreds of children were killed
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in castled it was 350 in protective Edge it was 550
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children and then thousands and thousands thousand and thousands of
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homes were pulverized leveled
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systematically methodically with no armed conflict in
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Play Just neighborhood after neighborhood was roped off it's all
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described in Israeli soldier testimonies roped off and demolished they brought in
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the bulldozers and demolished thousands and thousands of homes bear in
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mind 80% are refugees and children of refugees and
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now their homes and what they managed to build in
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those 50 or so years since 1948 the 48 war and now their homes are
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demolished and it's important I feel in my opinion
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to keep in mind the language what is mow the lawn it's
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taking in an Implement with blades on
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it to mow the lawn but brace
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yourself 50% of the blades in Gaza our
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children you're taking blades to crack the skulls of children
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that's the metaphor and that to me at the risk of
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sounding emotive and hyperbolic that to me is
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Testament to the satanic nature of that St state to coin a phrase like mow the
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lawn in a population that's half
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children and it's precisely that kind of
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language that enabled the
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horrors that we have seen unfold since October
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7th so um if you've read I don't say
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this proudly but I do say it is a factual matter I
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read the hundreds and hundreds of Human Rights
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reports on what has been done to the people of Gaza and I could tell you with
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certainty the quantity of the death and destruction
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that we're now observing has vastly increased the scale
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is just totally uh on a different level but not
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the quality the targeting of children the targeting of Medics the targeting of
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hospitals the using of civilians as human Shields the targeting of J uh of
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journalists that's all old hacked in Gaza that's par for the course in Gaza
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so there's nothing in terms of quality there's nothing new Under the
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Sun what has changed is this up until October
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7th Israel mowed the lawn in Gaza
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periodically that is to say wanted to inflict a Hightech Massacre on the
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people of Gaza to remind them who's in charge since October 7th they changed
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their they modified their strategy now they don't want to mow the lawn they
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want to exter Pate that's the fancy word for pull out by its roots they want to
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extrae all the blades of grass in Gaza they want to as they' have said on many
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occasions they want to render Gaza
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uninhabitable unlivable turn it into a howling
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Wilderness and the only last aspect I said there were two things I left out in my description but one I want to leave
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on is many people are appalled by what happened in in on
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October 7th and there can't be any doubt that
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atrocities on a significant scale were committed by Hamas about that I don't
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think there is grounds for dispute as of now you never know what future evidence
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will bring forth but as of now I think that's the reasonable conclusion what I
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find troubling is people are expected
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to uh answer the question do you condemn what Hamas did on October 7th but there
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is an antecedent question a question that comes before that because the question
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then becomes well what did you expect Israel to do after oo October 7 these
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atrocities on a colossal scale no question my mind about that and then the
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question become what did you expect Israel to do but I have a I think there's an antecedent question what did
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you expect the people of Gaza to do confined in a concentration camp for two
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decades and more you might say well why didn't they try
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diplomacy but they did when Hamas came into power it was clearly gesturing
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towards supporting the two-state settlement along the lines of the international
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legal consensus for resolving the conflict legal and political
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consensus Israel wouldn't even entertain the notion of negotiations with
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Hamas then in March 2018 in part I will confess it in part
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on my Vice my counsel I had been in touch with some
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people there and I had urged and encourage try nonviolent civil
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resistance do what you know the cliche do what Gandhi did do what Martin Luther
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King did what happened they tried it the great March of return began March 30th
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2018 it was overwhelmingly nonviolent it was a very
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festive event they came to the Gaza perimeter fence they had circus acts
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they had music they had dance they had
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celebration amidst the horrors what did Israel do we know exactly what they did
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they lined up along the perimeter with Gaza they lined up their best
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snipers and what did the snipers do in amidst this overwhelmingly
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nonviolent festive occasion according to a 250 page single
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spaced un report by very prominent jurists from around the
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world they targeted children that's not my words that's the UN report
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they targeted Medics they
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targeted journalists and here's the best one of all because it's so hard to believe you
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just don't your whole being resists believing it they targeted
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disabled people they targeted double amputees
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they targeted Gins on crutches who were
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300 M away from the perimeter fence leaning
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against trees picnicking that's who they
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targeted and when they didn't kill them they targeted them because this is
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their best snipers this was shooting fish in a barrel it was this is not the
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fog of War this was shooting fish in a barrel they targeted the demonstrators
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from the kneecap down to inflict to use
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the technical language lifechanging injuries non-technical language to
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paralyze them for life that's what happened they
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tried diplomacy failed they tried nonviolent
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civil resistance failed so by October
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6 the Fate that was awaiting them how old are you if you don't mind
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me asking I'm 30 years old Norm okay for most of those young people
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who burst the fa the gates of Gaza on October 7th they were in their early
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20s probably I would speculate but I think my speculation is inform formed
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probably not married don't yet have a family and are young because most of
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them recognized it was a suicide mission they the Assumption was they're not
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coming back you know once you crossed that barrier into Israel they didn't expect it was going to be that easy they
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were very surprised by what happened they expect it would be killed you know
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so if you had a family already or if you had children already if you had married already you're married already you
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wouldn't have volunteered for the mission because the go the Hamas army they say 30,000 I don't know I don't
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believe a number Israel says because all their numbers are fake uh but let's call
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it 30,000 so about 3,000 people two to three ,000 is estimated penetrated the
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fence you would guess it was the younger guys okay for all of those younger guys
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and I think you have to bear it in mind you're a 30y old you still have your life ahead of you and all they had they
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had no past they had no present they were born in the concentration
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camp and they had no future all they had was the expect
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to languish and die in this concentration G that's all they had no
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it's really it's really interesting to hear you make that point and set it out in that contextual setting because I
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think really the nub of the question that I by asking you that is whether or
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not there is ever justification for political violence I feel I feel like that's essentially where we're at we're
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talking about an escalation in a series of provocations whether it's the Hightech m massacres that you describe
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whether it's that sort of deeply dehumanizing past present future lack of
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that really the reality of this is we're we're we're ending up in a place where we're talking about is armed resistance
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Justified and I feel like particularly here in the UK there's kind
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of a it's actually almost a double standard to be honest with you that we say no you know no no no um the actions of October
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7th with terrorism there is no justification for them whatsoever the killing of innocent people and whether
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it's and and we sort of stick our fingers in our is and say you know that you you can't be violent you have to
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adopt the sort of civil resistance nonviolent action in complete denial of
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the fact that the state meets out violence every single day whether it's by the police her armed forces or
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whatever and I don't know why there's this almost obfuscation or denial of the fact that
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in the instance of the Palestinian people who have been occupied and face
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everything that you've just described in that setting that their violent um I I mean I
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would say sort of morally reprehensible some of the things that happened on October 7th that there is actually almost in a
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in a in a way after listening to the very compelling arguments that you've just made well the history that you've
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just given you're essentially saying well they've exhausted all their other options where else should they
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turn yes I do believe they exhausted all their options I want to just if you
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allow me to make a simple comparison which I think is valid even as it's
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simple in our own country where here I refer to the United States before the
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Civil War there were slave uprisings slave rebellions and those slave uprisings
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were not a pretty picture if you take the most famous was by a fellow named Nat
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Turner and Nat Turner in 1831 he went on what you would call
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nowadays a rampage with his Confederates uh a handful of people
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really his Confederates and they killed men his
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order incidentally not Turner's order was kill all white people that was his
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order and they proceeded to do that now in their case they beheaded babies that
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didn't happen in Gaza but in the case of Nat Turner it did they went into the B bedrooms took out the axes and beheaded
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babies and it was an interesting Revelation for me I was curious what the
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abolitionists had to say the abolitionists were white people who oppose slavery in a very brave fashion
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it wasn't an easy thing to do back then uh people like William Lloyd Garrison and there are uh many others I mention
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Garrison because he was the editor a publication called The Liberator and he
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had to contend with what Nat Turner did and he
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as all abolitionists were like as you said a moment ago they were committed to
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nonviolence they were committed what they called moral suasion trying to
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convince their fellow citizens White Citizens that slavery is wrong on moral
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grounds and try to persuade them now uh after the Nat Turner Rebellion
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Nat Turner and his Confederates they killed about 61 people uh in gruesome
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ways smashed skulls beheaded babies they went the whole nine
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yards um he said yes Horrors occurred
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the not turn of rebellion Horrors occurred no question about but then when he had to allocate
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responsibility allocate blame he did not blame that Turner he
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began his editorial and he kept repeating he kept repeating we told you
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so he's speaking to fellow whites We Told You So we told you so you treat
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these people that way and that's know you're going to reap what you have
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sown and and I felt his moral
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posture was correct you condemn the deed
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but he would not condemn the perpetrators because he understood remember we're talking about
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1831 where the prospect of ending slavery was zero in the United States
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and that Turner he happened to have been a very smart guy very smart guy white said it
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black said it that Nat is a very smart guy okay he was literate he knew the
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Bible like the back of his hand and what do you think Nat Turner is
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thinking he's thinking and we know he was thinking I
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have so much potential as a human being there are so many
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dreams I could real realiz so many
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aspirations as a human being that I Harbor but I will never realize those
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dreams I will never realize those aspirations I was
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born I'm living and I will die a
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slave and he ultimately rebelled
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in gruesome ways for sure he rebelled at that
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Prospect and I don't believe there's a substantive
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difference between his condition and the condition that had been Meed out by
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Israel to the people of Gaza and so even
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as I recognize like the Abol ists that Horrors
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occurred I for one maybe because I'm too
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close to the facts I know in every
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detail what had been done to the people of Gaza before October 7th I'm too close
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to it my inners RVE each time I read another human
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rights report I squint and Flinch when I
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think targeting ues this country is
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completely mad it's lunatic and this is not after October 7
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I'm talking about March 2018 their hatred their loathing their
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contempt for these Palestinians it's like you know when I
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was a kid I don't claim to be a saint I'm not I'm very far from it if you knew my flaws they would frighten and terrify
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you I remember as a kid one of the games we used to play listen to me we took
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what was called the magnifying glass they were much more popular back then uh
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it's the glass that bends the light into a beam and our fun was to take the
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magnifying glass bend the light to burn to a crisp
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ants that was kid what kids did they burn to a crisp ants and it was fun watching the ant hills you know just
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implode from the pressure of the light beam and that's the
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Israelis with the Palestinians the fun
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of targeting amputees it's the truth that's why when
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everybody now is shocked by the videos of the Israelis posting as they
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incinerate houses or kill Palestinians and how joyful they are and how euphoric
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they are I'm not surprised at all that's what I've been reading for 15 years yeah
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no Norm can I ask I mean you've used there's a couple of words you've used over the course so far of this
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conversation you've called the Israeli government satanic uh lunatic which I know as well it's a reference to a piece
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you recently published on your substack Samson and Cassandra where you sort of made that argument and you know another
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piece um you recently wrote on there when it's okay to Nuke a country um and
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sort of I think we'll talk about Iran slightly later on so I'll just leave leave that for a second but you know I
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would just I would just say those descriptions those acts you know when it's okay to Nuka country saying that
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it's satanic saying that it's a lunatic Nation I just I know it's a slightly clumsy um
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comparison to make the one that I'm about to but you know you are Jewish
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your parents were in concentration camps and I wonder if you worry about sort of the fact that the the impact I should
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say that rhetoric like that can have whether it's about you know fueling a rise in anti-Semitism or opening a door
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for people to be anti-semitic in their in their criticism I just wonder if you
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how you've rationalized those those two things with with particularly the sort of yes the
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language that you're using to talk about the state of Israel well look Ali I'll treat you as
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somebody I know and not try to put on on an air and estrange one from the other I'll give
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you an honest answer I would say there was a point in my
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life where my self-identification as
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Jewish would have caused me to hesitate before uttering statements or
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descriptives of the kind I just did but and I'm here I'm speaking with
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complete cander and I think with utter
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sincerity and I know what I'm about to say will probably surprise you I don't
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see Israel as a Jewish State it's a type the Israeli type is
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not the type I grew up with as a Jew as a Jew growing up being Jewish meant
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being cerebral be yes it meant being cerebral
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we took great pride can you imagine the pride Jews took in the fact that the
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four Great uh figures of the modern world
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Einstein Freud Marx and someone include Jesus
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were Jewish we surge with pride at that fact do you know the kind of Pride we
38:56
took that 25% of the Nobel laurates are Jewish even though they
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represent 0.002% of the world population yes the
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life of the Mind loomed large being Jewish it also
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meant being creative and creative also with a kind
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of a schlam it's hard to translate schlam it
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means kind of weakling uh aspect so for us a youment
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Woody Allen it did for us growing up or France kfka with the big ears you know
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that that was being a Jew lining up along a perimeter fence
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and targeting double amputees sorry that has nothing to do with a Jew
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or Jews as I came as I grew up
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understanding that notion so I don't feel Israel as a Jewish State I don't I
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think it's a lunatic state so it doesn't at this point in my life I don't feel
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the kind of conflict that you personal conflict that
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you uh allude to however I do
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recognize that Israel calling itself a Jewish State and carrying on as it does
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is going to increase the danger of
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anti-Semitism but that's a problem in my opinion first of
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all created by the state of Israel I would much rather and not call
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itself you know Israel the uh the nation state of the Jewish people I would
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rather call S Israel the nation state of the lunatic people or Misha we have in
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Yiddish expression Miga which means crazy so the nation state of the Misha preo that would I think um diminish the
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prospects of anti-Semitism increasing as Israel carries on and then the other
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side is fortunately we have reached a point where a a large number of Jews
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have to use an expression I heard a few months ago have checked out of Hotel
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Zion uh which is to say they don't want to have anything to do with the state and that's a good thing now let me be
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clear so there's no room for misapprehension uh there are many
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states which have gone through lunatic phases I personally do not believe in
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the notion of original sin namely you were born in sin which Israel was you
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know expelled the indigenous population but so was the United States it expelled
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and exterminated the indigenist population and also it Enslaved the
42:12
African population so it's a double sin in the case of the United States in the
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case of the US one wrong effectively could not be rectified the native
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population was exter at in large part and the remnants that remained were
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confined to reservations and there's no turning the
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wheel back on that in the case of the
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African-Americans it was a complex protracted struggle you will be
42:49
surprised I think to learn it cost the lives of 700,000 Americans the Civil War
42:57
was a very bloody episode in our history and then
43:02
it required a second struggle the civil rights movement and it will require many
43:09
more struggles but I wouldn't describe is American Civil Life political life
43:17
given who may be president next and given who's president now lunatic is still well within a reasonable
43:24
vocabulary but in terms of Civil Life no I wouldn't regard the United States as a
43:29
lunatic State anymore in the case of Japan and Germany I would say beginning
43:36
in the 1930s obviously not before Germany was the peak of
43:43
European civilization where do you go to study you go study in Germany where do you go
43:49
to philosophy you turn to Germany where do you go for literature you turn to Germany but beginning you could say in
43:56
the 193 30 s uh and climaxing at the end of world towards the end of World War II
44:03
beginning 1943 on it was a certifiably lunatic State same thing with Japan I mean
44:10
people forget the Japanese killed about 26 million
44:16
Chinese brutal insane country so when I describ Israel as a
44:25
lunatic state it does not mean to me
44:30
it's unredeemable but what's going on
44:37
now starving 1 million children to death 1
44:43
million children to death that's insane sorry if you lost your
44:52
capacity to see the innocence of children
44:59
you've you've lost your mind you're crazy in in light of i w I won't retract
45:06
that when Israel's Chief historian Benny
45:11
moris says in a Blas fashion let's nuke
45:19
Iran and then goes on to say they deserve it the people the civilians he
45:26
says because they elected that government he's their Chief historian he
45:32
went to Cambridge he studied in your country he's actually a good historian
45:38
and his English is quite Lively he's got good English proy he does facts are facts but he's a moral
45:45
monster that's a monstrous statement that's incinerating tens of millions of
45:52
people incinerating and he doesn't even
45:58
register or it doesn't register for him the moral
46:04
consequences he just says if the United States doesn't join us in the attack on
46:10
Iran we'll have to use non-conventional weapons which is the technical term for
46:16
nuclear weapons and he says if many civilians die well they deserved it because they elected that government
46:22
that's insane how do you think the attacks launched by by Iran um which
46:29
some have argued has to be said with disproportionate in response to the Israeli bombing of the Iranian Embassy but how do you think those attacks and
46:35
then Israel's um sort of air strike on Friday how do you think that changes the
46:40
conflict does it make it harder for the West to sort of withdraw support or arms
46:47
arms exports as there was a significant amount of pressure building here in the UK for example for that to be the case
46:52
do you think that Iranian involvement how does it change the dynamic from a from a from a western
46:59
perspective I think you have to understand the context Israel is
47:06
premise or its premise is it must
47:11
control and dominate the region and just a little history if
47:18
you'll forgive me the big threat that Israel uh was transfixed by after 19 48
47:27
was his character named gaml Abdul Nasser the president of Egypt and Nasser
47:34
was like many Arab nationalists at the time he was a rabble Rouser he gave
47:39
these rousing emotive speeches and he was what
47:44
was called a radical Arab Nationalist and the Israelis feared that
47:52
he would be like Ataturk in Turkey he would modernize
47:57
Egypt and once having modernized Egypt he would pose a threat to Israel's
48:05
Regional domination they would have to contend with another power in the region
48:11
and Israel did everything they could to topple him and finally with the 1967 war
48:18
they succeeded and it was the end of that era long before you ever emerged
48:24
from your mother's womb that era called radical Arab nationalism and Israel was
48:30
now sitting pretty in the Middle East what it didn't anticipate but nobody
48:37
anticipated was a new phenomenon emerged to replace it instead of radical Arab
48:45
nationalism it was now radical ISL Islamic
48:50
fundamentalism and that was Iran beginning in 1979 and now now Israel is as
49:00
determined to topple the Iranian
49:06
regime as it was in the 1950s and 60s to
49:11
topple Egypt because it does not want to have to
49:17
reckon with another Regional power that
49:22
hems it in that doesn't allow it comp complete freedom to carry on as it wants
49:31
to carry on Israel wants to dominate the region and So my answer to your question
49:39
long winded as I always am is Israel now has fixed in its crosshairs
49:47
Iran and whatever Iran does if it behaves
49:54
peacefully if it behaves passively if it behaves
50:01
non-violently Israel will keep escalating the
50:06
provocations until finally it's provoked the final
50:13
showdown so we all know Israel killed
50:18
Iranian scientists Israel killed all sorts of Iranians over the years military
50:25
civilian C ion military overlap as a nuclear
50:30
scientist but my belief now is Israel sees an
50:38
opportunity in because of October 7th and because of the alleged Iranian
50:45
retaliation uh Israel sees an opportunity to
50:50
finally solves not just the Gaza question by extraa all the blades of
50:58
grass from the lawn but also solving the Hezbollah question and the Iranian
51:07
question and one thing you could say about isra israeli's leadership they very rarely let an
51:14
opportunity pass them by and they see an opportunity now for a political
51:23
Trifecta Gaza Hezbollah and Iran so whatever Iran does Israel will keep
51:31
escalating ratcheting up the provocations in order to finally solve
51:40
that question can we separate out or I'd invite you actually to separate
51:46
out between Israel and the leadership there because I think where I'd like to
51:51
know your position on sort of how I don't want to go around sort of you know invoking like the Great man of History
51:57
Theory right but netanyahu's capacity and influence and and personal
52:03
motivation in this because there's I don't know if this is necessarily the case in the States but certainly in the UK a lot of discussion about him
52:10
personally and his political survival and that essentially the perpetuation of the war is a necessity for him to stay
52:17
in office that once it ends there'll be elections he'll be gone blah blah blah blah blah blah and I wonder how
52:24
compelling you find that to be and and I'd also um actually ask you as well you
52:30
you know you've previously spoken about a sort of pragmatic two-state solution Netanyahu has you know
52:36
expressed opposition to sort of any form of Palestinian State now multiple times
52:42
uh since October 7th so I'd sort of as well as talking about his role and
52:47
and sort of significance of his capacity as an individual what do you think his actual end game is here what do you
52:53
think the outcome that he's pursuing is look Israel is for its Jewish
53:01
component Israel is a democracy it is for its Jewish
53:06
component now prime minister Netanyahu is the
53:13
longest lasting prime minister in Israeli history it used to be benorian David benorian the first Prime Minister
53:21
but that's he's been put in the shade benorian by uh nahu if you read the
53:28
liberal commentators or commentators in the west there every few months they're
53:34
predicting the end of netanyahu's rule it doesn't happen because
53:41
Netanyahu he is a reflection and a
53:47
representation of Israeli Society he's an
53:53
obnoxious narcissistic Jewish supremacist who thinks that only Jews
54:01
count in God's Grand Design everybody else the goyam as they're called they
54:08
have no place in God's Grand Design except where Israel decides to situate
54:16
or place them so the first fact is we have to bear in mind he remains even now
54:26
very very popular in Israel the claim is his standing up to Iran has increased
54:33
his popularity but as a general rule number two Israel as a
54:40
democracy were it true that his PO his policies were
54:46
unpopular another candidate would emerge that's the nature of a
54:52
democracy have you heard of another candidate who has emerged by
55:00
dissociating himself or denouncing uh netanyahu's policies the answer is
55:10
no number three it's not just the Israeli
55:15
state if you look at the Israeli Society
55:20
I'm not talking about the uh people at the helmet of the state the Israeli
55:29
Society overwhelmingly overwhelmingly supports the genocidal war in Gaza it's
55:39
over it's about 95% of the Jewish Israelis
55:45
95 I have the statistics right here even I was I have to say I was a little
55:53
astonished when I read the latest numbers
56:00
uh let's see about 60% of Israeli Jews oppose any
56:08
humanitarian Aid to Gaza but that's the question of the a I'm talking about the
56:16
War uh let's see give me one half
56:23
second here in po on the issue of the
56:29
war on this issue of the war only
56:37
1.8% that was in October 7% that was in
56:45
December and 3.2% that's
56:50
January of Jewish Israelis believed the IDF was used too much Firepower in Gaza
56:59
do you hear those percentages as of January when already it's reaching the
57:07
icj the international court of justice on charges of
57:12
genocide only 3.2% of Jewish Israelis believe the
57:19
Israeli Defense Forces was using too much Firepower in Gaza so when people
57:25
want to lay to blame for the insanity on uh
57:31
Netanyahu that is I don't say it gleefully I'm simply reporting it
57:40
objectively that is a misrepresentation of the facts if
57:46
there's no political opposition to be seen against
57:53
Netanyahu or substantive no leader to
57:58
emerge it's because the whole population agrees with
58:03
what nothing yahu is doing if he were simply doing it as
58:09
Western commentators like to say because the longer the war goes on the Le the
58:17
the more time it will take for corruption charges to be lodged against
58:23
him and so he wants to stay out of jail if any of that were
58:28
true the other Israeli generals and Senior
58:34
officials would simply mount a campaign on those grounds that he's just
58:40
trying to protect himself they're not saying that because they all agree with his
58:47
policies we have to be honest about that they all agree with his policies that's
58:55
the problem it's a lunatic State and a Lunatic
59:01
Society and we should be as free about saying that as we would say about Nazi
59:07
Germany beginning in around 1943 now Nazi Germany you could say there was extenuating
59:14
circumstances what do I mean by that it was a totalitarian state it did control
59:21
all the media and by 1943 the Germans are clearly beginning to
59:28
lose the war and in places like
59:33
Stalingrad uh Leningrad thousands if not more than
59:40
thousands of German soldiers are freezing to death in the Snows the
59:45
winter the Russian winter and also on the domestic front
59:52
there is new PR private priv Riv ations deprivations you know the um
1:00:00
um uh restrictions uh the German government because it's losing the war are putting
1:00:06
on consumption and things like that okay and the totalitarian German media Nazi
1:00:13
media are saying it's all the fault of the judeo BOS conspiracy it's the judeo
1:00:19
BOS conspiracy and they're hearing it over and over and over again so you can
1:00:24
understand I'm not excusing it I'm just saying factually you can understand that
1:00:30
at some point they've gone crazy and they hate the Jews and the Jews are causing our soldiers to die in the
1:00:36
Eastern front and blah blah blah blah blah Israel is not a totalitarian state
1:00:42
Israel probably has the highest usage of the web per capita per capita of any
1:00:50
country in the world now you could say it's true the Israeli media are painting a very false picture of what's going on
1:00:56
in Gaza but you know you're a young man you know that most young people don't
1:01:01
get their information from mainstream media anymore they get it from the web Isel have are perfectly aware of what's
1:01:08
going on no I have to I have to I have to ask you and I'm I don't I don't ask this
1:01:15
question because I'm saying that you know you haven't evidenced the point that you've just made you've spent a long time let it laying out this
1:01:21
argument but you must surely understand that when you make that comparison
1:01:26
between the state of Israel and with Nazi Germany that that is an inflammatory thing right there are
1:01:32
people who will just hear those two things in a sentence and the the sort of
1:01:37
the moral outrage the the upset at hearing that will be extreme and and I
1:01:43
think as well you know I think about some of the things I know you you say right you don't you don't use the social
1:01:48
media but you send things to people and you know they write things and some of the stuff that that you sort of comes
1:01:53
out on your social media as well you know it is inflammatory I don't want to retread too much of it um because I know
1:02:00
you've you've you've spoken about it in other media things I think with Piers Morgan you had a back in fourth about something that you tweeted in relation
1:02:06
to October 7th but I just I don't speak by the way yeah that yeah that's what I was saying tweeting is you have someone
1:02:13
you have someone else who writes it for you right yeah and I just I just wonder
1:02:19
whether how much of a deliberate choice is it by you to make these points in
1:02:26
this fashion right to to to to yes have
1:02:31
evidence talk about the history to make you know compelling understandable arguments but
1:02:38
nonetheless choose provocation as one of the methods of delivery how how much of
1:02:43
that is a deliberate Choice by you well first of all and this is not an excuse
1:02:48
again it's a fact my parents passed through the Nazi Holocaust I grew up in that so to speak
1:02:56
mil or Ambiance we not a day pass without that experience in some way or
1:03:03
other a bearing on my life growing up so for me that's a natural
1:03:09
comparison number two it's not as if I have a monopoly on
1:03:17
that analogy if you read gillad
1:03:22
eron's speech to the security Council emergency session last Sunday it was all
1:03:30
about the whole speech the whole speech was Iran is Nazi Germany and now Iran
1:03:38
wants to conquer the world Iran is the third right and Iran needs to be stopped
1:03:45
we need a as he put it we need a a Churchill not a Chamberlin now okay so
1:03:53
it's not as if as I said I en vented or I plucked from the cobweb past this
1:04:02
analogy it's Common Place number three I
1:04:07
do think that Israel has
1:04:13
now reached a lunatic place where the
1:04:18
survival of not just the region but the planet is at stake
1:04:26
now I will recognize there is also that danger
1:04:31
looming in Ukraine the possible
1:04:38
escalation which will take us or hurl us
1:04:44
over the precipice I would make the following
1:04:50
distinction if you will allow me you're 30 years old so you will probably won't
1:04:56
remember much but there was the first Gulf the second Gulf War the Iraq War of
1:05:03
2003 okay now in the buildup to the 2003 Iraq
1:05:11
war in no small part presided over your own lunatic Prime Minister Tony Blair
1:05:19
with those Dracula eyes they always looked transfixed very scary
1:05:26
individual in my opinion crazed craz individual but what struck me and
1:05:33
I'm going to make a comparison now one of the crucial steps towards the
1:05:42
war in Iraq was the famous speech delivered by our secretary of state
1:05:49
Colin Powell at the UN and in the speech he laid out the
1:05:57
case for attacking Iraq and he brought to bear all of this
1:06:05
quote unquote intelligence evidence to prove Saddam
1:06:11
Hussein had weapons of mass destruction now it turned out the
1:06:17
evidence was false but he brought to bear evidence
1:06:25
that could be Harse that's just the fancy word for analyzed and either
1:06:32
affirmed or refuted it was a
1:06:37
rational presentation now remember the bush White
1:06:42
House was led by Vice President Dick Cheney and defense minister Donald rumel
1:06:51
they were the real forces behind George Bush who didn't know very much uh he
1:06:58
didn't you know he he was not very bright uh and they were right-wing
1:07:05
crazies uh Cheney and rville they were the ultra conservative in our country
1:07:12
the ultra conservative in our country okay and yet they still had the mental
1:07:21
Lucidity you have to present a rational
1:07:27
argument but when you read the Israelis now like er on speech I was really
1:07:33
struck now you might say maybe it's because uh finlin you're not accustomed
1:07:41
to the ways of communicating nowadays uh the modes of communication
1:07:47
at one point in his speech he takes his iPad erdan the Israeli represent
1:07:57
I'm using my book now he takes his iPad and has an image of an Israeli rocket
1:08:05
intercepting a drone an Iranian drone and it appears to be over Al oxam Masque
1:08:12
he takes the image and he's holding it up for the own the whole Security
1:08:19
Council and he pens the security Council like I'm doing now and he says look
1:08:26
we we Israelis we are the Protectors of Islamic holy sites we're
1:08:35
protecting the Islamic holy sites from the
1:08:41
defilers of the holy sites in tyan I'm thinking this guy is a complete
1:08:47
nut I'm wondering what what are people thinking that security C the guy is a
1:08:54
lunatic Iran wants to take over the world yes
1:08:59
Iran wants to be a regional power I have no doubt about that Iran's not much much
1:09:04
different than Brazil or India it's not China China wants to be a global power
1:09:10
but there are others that want to be Regional power yes I have no doubt about that and is it a pretty picture actually
1:09:16
I don't think it's a pretty picture I'm not keen on the Iranian regime but the
1:09:21
Third Reich Nazi Germany the Ayatollah is
1:09:27
Hitler they want to take over the world do you think Iran wants to take
1:09:33
over Fiji I'd like to I'd like to take over
1:09:38
Fiji to be honest with you they got some nice beaches there I'll take over Barbados yeah good idea good idea it's
1:09:45
they're crazy nor I okay so look you you've recently appeared on
1:09:52
all kinds of um media right I mentioned Piers Morgan then but you know you
1:09:58
you've had debates on his show with the likes of kind of Rabbi schmi and Alan
1:10:03
duritz you know recently you've been on Lex Friedman's podcast you you had you did that sort of panel debate with the
1:10:10
streamer um destiny but you he has he has another name but you sort of um I
1:10:15
think we kept calling him something different but anyway you know you're talking to me now right and as an
1:10:21
academic that has devoted Decades of research right adult life your entire
1:10:27
adult life right to the Israel Palestine situation I mean how do you prepare yourself to kind
1:10:34
of debate with people who are far more politicized and often to be honest far less
1:10:39
knowledgeable right of the situation than you are you're kind of in this
1:10:45
space with people I'm mainly thinking about Destiny now who are just frankly
1:10:50
unqualified to be engaging with you on the subject matter and yet you're kind of having to do it right to sort of to
1:10:57
access the audience and to make these points and to open people up to your to your research and work your
1:11:06
Academia um first of all I'm in debt to
1:11:12
anyone who gives me a platform now it's not because as Bernie
1:11:18
Sanders used to say our senator who ran for office his campaign slogan was it's
1:11:24
not about me it's about us so if I'm grateful for the platform it's not about
1:11:31
me I could say that with absolute certainty I never sought the
1:11:40
Limelight Gaza was not the most popular issue on the Block I invested in it because I felt a
1:11:49
duty to record for history not for the present what was being done or what had
1:11:57
been done to the people of Gaza when October 7th
1:12:04
happened I was suddenly in demand but contrary to the optical illusions of the
1:12:13
web I've actually not been in many places at all you'll be very
1:12:19
surprised apart from Pierce Morgan who had me on four times and in all four
1:12:26
occasions acquitted himself responsibly and with dignity in my opinion I've not
1:12:34
been on any of the mainstream media none if you were to ask have I been on ABC
1:12:41
News NBC News CBS News have I been on CNN Fox News
1:12:47
MSNBC have I has my name been mentioned in the New York Times The Washington Post the New York Review of Books the
1:12:54
New Yorker magazine Atlantic magazine Los Angeles Times answer no full stop no
1:13:03
qualifications what happened is because of the nature of the web number one I get a lot of views but
1:13:12
it's only from a very a handful of programs I've not been on your hard
1:13:18
talk trigger ometry that program it
1:13:24
three times booked me and three times cancelled me before I could appear on
1:13:31
yes I have the email correspondence they they book me and
1:13:37
then they cancell me I've not been on almost anywhere but because I possess a
1:13:44
knowledge not because I was born with the Gaza Gene but because I work hard and I was
1:13:52
the only person to invest my home mental being in that topic and as a
1:14:00
responsibility I won't say I possess the truth I'll say I'm
1:14:08
confident I possess a larger portion of the truth than anybody else out there
1:14:17
not because of Genius but because of hard work so in that sense it's a lot
1:14:25
lives that are at stake I am very tired right now I was not
1:14:32
prepared for what befell me after October
1:14:37
7th and I had a whole stack of books on a thousand different topics that I
1:14:43
wanted to read about and now once again I am I don't want to say
1:14:51
burdened but I have to carry the weight of Gaza and whenever I feel
1:14:59
exhausted as I often do I keep telling to myself telling myself well how must
1:15:07
the people of Gaza feel after six and a half months of this horror of fleeing
1:15:15
and fleeing and fleeing if you're in the north go to the South and then they go
1:15:22
to the South and then Israel drops these 2,000 uh pound bombs these two two ton
1:15:31
bombs in Rafa where they told them to flee and then they're told to flee here
1:15:38
and then they're given this grid and they're saying go to this space in the grid go to that space in the grid
1:15:46
you take it like a checker board but multiply it a thousand times and that's what these grids that Israel distributes
1:15:54
and they're rushing and they're rushing and they're rushing and in the midst of the rushing they're being killed and
1:16:01
they have to bury their dead and then they have to dig up from the rubble those who might still be alive under
1:16:08
their Rubble then they have to go for water and then they have to go for food
1:16:14
and then they have to go to the convoys rushan rushing rushing burying the dead
1:16:20
burying the dead holding out the maybe alive I say Norm you live a charm life
1:16:28
you keep going so and I'm grateful for
1:16:33
anyone the thought that always clings to me is everybody clings to their
1:16:42
life their life each of us clings to it and if you
1:16:50
save one life in Gaza you it could be your own and I cling to my life
1:16:59
so I have no Great Hopes uh for what I'm
1:17:05
doing but one life uh is still something it might be
1:17:12
your own so I'm grateful to anybody who will have me on not for me
1:17:19
I'm an old man now I always say to my friends you know if I were 45
1:17:25
and this what happening to me oh it's a step on the career ladder even though
1:17:31
it's a frankly it's a sick step sick because
1:17:36
what is it I'm only a known quantity now because people were dying in
1:17:43
droves that's the only reason I'm a known quantity if people were happy in Gaza
1:17:50
nobody would give a damn about me my book my knowledge or anything else so I
1:17:55
have to always maintain the
1:18:01
self-possession of remembering if I'm now a known
1:18:07
quantity it's because thousands and they're now saying
1:18:13
tens of thousands of Palestinians are going to die in this manmade famine it would
1:18:22
be a sin sin against the
1:18:28
memory of what happened to my parents where I could take
1:18:35
pride in the position I'm in now when my mother for example talked about the
1:18:43
war she always she didn't talk about the
1:18:49
barbarities and she never talked about her family I have no idea what happened
1:18:55
to my mother's family every member was exterminated I never I have no idea what
1:19:00
happened to my father's family every member exterminated but my mother always
1:19:07
talked about the hunger the hunger the hunger in the ghetto in particular the
1:19:14
waso ghetto the hunger and so for me
1:19:20
now to take pride in
1:19:25
my in the fact that I was on Pierce Morgan four times no that would be a
1:19:34
sin against the horrors that my parents
1:19:40
endured and the second thing is I'm an old man my life is behind me
1:19:49
it's not an item now for my resume it's not going to get me a plum
1:19:57
position all my friends are retired so I don't have so to speak a
1:20:07
professional dog in this race I don't
1:20:13
sometimes when I get a little you know I get a little carried away with myself I do my mother used to whenever I
1:20:20
got carried away myself she used to she used the expression clip my wings to remind me nor you know Norman don't
1:20:28
get carried away you know and whenever I get carried away I say no you have like
1:20:36
15 years left to live this is not going this is not a
1:20:43
feather in your cap
1:20:48
so I'm glad to be there if I can save that one life could be my
1:20:55
own uh and I do believe I know more only because of hard work no no
1:21:04
genes I was very close friends for 40 years U with Professor chsky he was my
1:21:11
mentor and I think it's fair to say I was his disciple and prodige not his
1:21:17
only disciple and prodige but one among several that's correct but I was in his
1:21:23
physical PR pres for 40 years I know genius I do I know
1:21:31
genius I'm not by a wide margin but I work hard I always work
1:21:39
hard and I'm responsible people
1:21:45
dying and by some [Music]
1:21:51
strange turn of fate I finally I found myself in the strange
1:21:58
position that all of a sudden I was the world's leading Authority on this
1:22:03
subject it could have been the South Sahara it could have been the Kurds it
1:22:09
could have been East Tour it could have been a thousand different places but I
1:22:16
turned out to be the world's leading Authority on this tiny tiny little place
1:22:22
which is actually in population smaller than Brooklyn New York where I live and I happen to know in terms of
1:22:31
the detail the documentary detail not the physical
1:22:36
topography but in documentary detail I just happen to know more than anybody
1:22:42
else and I'm going to use it I'm going to battle on battle on and do what I can to
1:22:53
reveal to expose not what happened in October 7th
1:22:58
and thereafter because there's a lot of good material out there now those un
1:23:05
agencies have documented from beginning October 88th the horrors that were
1:23:13
inflicted so I'm really unnecessary for that if you look at the South Africans
1:23:20
application to the international court of justice it's 84 single space pages with hundreds and
1:23:30
hundreds of footnotes from the UN agencies so I'm not needed there but I
1:23:38
know what happened before October 7th you know I
1:23:45
know what happened to the battered woman for 20 years because I was the next door
1:23:52
neighbor before she k killed her spouse I know what brought her to that
1:23:59
point I heard the screams I heard the
1:24:04
banging I saw how physically battered she
1:24:11
was so when I heard that she killed her husband and she stabbed him aund
1:24:19
times and all of the tabloids had as the headlines
1:24:25
monster woman stabs husband a hundred
1:24:31
times I know what preceded those 100
1:24:37
stabbings Norm thank you for your well thank you for being the leading Authority in the field of one as
1:24:44
you put it when we started our conversation that's absolutely true and thank you for your hard work and thank
1:24:50
you for speaking to me now um it means a great deal and I I think your words mean
1:24:56
a great deal to a lot of people so thank you very much and I I wish you all the best is there anything you'd like to any
1:25:01
resources or otherwise you'd like to point people towards before we finish this conversation or anything you you'd
1:25:07
like them to go and go and take a look at a good Brit a good young brick jimy Stern Wier just published a book called
1:25:15
Deluge uh he's the editor of a book called delu on what haen what has
1:25:21
happened in Gaza in the last six months and also the background and it's put out by or books and it's a
1:25:27
solid volume I don't have a contribution in it so I'm Not tooting my own horn I'm
1:25:32
saying it's a solid book and it gives the requisite the necessary background so I would definitely recommend that no
1:25:40
thank you again for your time I really appreciate it thank you my
1:25:53
pleasure e
