Video Infoblog: Norman Finkelstein’s MUST-SEE Take On Israel-Palestine

Transcript

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hello there you Awakening wonders thank you so much for joining me for stayfree with Russell Brown today you can get

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Norman felin's new book I'll burn that bridge when I get to it heretical thoughts on identity politics cancel

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culture and academic freedom at norman.com over the course of this conversation we talk a lot about

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obviously the uh conflagration in the Middle East Norman finlin has extremely

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strong well researched views that some of you will no doubt vehemently oppose and others of you will be extremely

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interested to listen to as I continually tell you when it comes to this conflict I hope that we are able to form some

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kind of cartilage where we may make connections that could lead to Peaceful solutions for all of us which seems like

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a pretty extreme ambition and nevertheless with the Divinity within us all no lesser ambition will do so let's

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get into the conversation Norman thank you very much for joining me for stayfree with Russell

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Brand thank you for having me first of all Norman I want to start by asking you

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a question that you requested we began with the the 2014 uh operation known as protective

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Edge can you explain uh for us our viewers that are live with us in the

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locals Community right now and for our Rumble stream viewers what operation protective Edge was how it's significant

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in the Israel Hamas or Israel Palestine conflict depending on how you frame it

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and why you have chosen that to be our sort of starting point for the conversation

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today uh in the current round of um

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interviews that have been done on oper on the current Israeli assault on Gaza

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everything seems to start on October 7th as everything was as if everything were

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fine in Dandy until October 7th and on October 7th this gang of thugs Hooligans

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and insane people burst the gates of Gaza and proceed to commit a a high

2:07

scale nasre in Israel but for those who have studied

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the conflict what happened in October 7th wasn't the beginning of the story it

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was really the climax of a chapter in the story and that's climax in the

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chapter of The Story begins really in 2006 when Israel imposed a brutal

2:34

economic blockade on Gaza the effect of that blockade was that nothing could go

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into Gaza and nothing could come out of Gaza no person could go into Gaza and no

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person could leave Gaza without Israel's permission Israel imposed in the course

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of that blockade a regime of a star our

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starvation plus diet on the people of Gaza it literally calculate the caloric

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intake of the people in Gaza and then allowed food to enter Gaza at a

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starvation plus level Gaza has suffered from among the

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worst uh economic uh well economic deprivation

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but in particular unemployment in Gaza among Gaza in general it's about 50% of

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the population among youth M namely the people who birth the gates of Gaza the

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unemployment is at a level of about 70% about 97% of the water in Gaza is

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poisonous it can't be drunk by the people now if you add off all of these

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factors what do you get and I've just really just skim the surface I haven't

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mentioned that half the population of Gaza comprises children I haven't mentioned that 70% of

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the population of Gaza comprises refugees who were expelled from Israel

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in 1948 and their descendants I haven't mentioned that

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Gaza is among the most densely populated places on God's Earth I haven't mentioned that but the

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young people who burst the gates of Gaza most of them were born into that place

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that and which suffered from this economic blockade since

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2006 so what do we get when we put all these factors together well if we take

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your own former British Prime Minister David Cameron who now I understand is

4:55

your foreign secretary David Cameron described Gaza as an open a

5:02

prison if you take Israel's senior security establishment official he was

5:10

the head of Israel's um uh National Security Council his name

5:16

is Gora Island and in March 2004 Gora

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Island described gaza's quote a huge concentration camp and so what you what

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you saw on October 7th was young men who had born who had been born into a

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concentration camp and had lived for 20

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years of their lives in that concentration camp but that's only half

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the story the other half of the story is Israel per

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periodically quote to quote Israel mosed the lawn in Gaza and what is mowing the lawn well

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mowing the lawn is these Hightech massacres that Israel launches against

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Gaza and a lot of people nowaday nowadays Express the opinion that if

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Israel is conducting such massive death and destruction in Gaza it's because of

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what happened on October 7th well it is true it is

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true that the quantitative magnitude of

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the death and destruction in Gaza is at a new level I wouldn't I wouldn't argue

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with that no same person would argue with that but it's natur true that the

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methods that Israel is employing in Gaza are new or that they suddenly emerged

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after October 7th so I asked your colleagues to just

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print out you have in front of you a list taken from not a human rights

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report not from the United Nations but just random

7:20

testimonies of Israeli soldiers who fought in operation protective Edge in

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2014 now I want you to bear in mind that this

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list comprises not soldiers who are

7:38

peaceniks not soldiers who feel guilty

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or remorseful about their actions on the contrary these soldiers

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just randomly describe what they did in God

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and I want to reiterate for your listeners this is

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before October 7th this is standard

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operating procedure for Israelis each time they mow the lawn in GSA so I'm

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going to ask you Russell because by profession you're an actor so you have a much better voice than me just for each

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testimony I'm just going to ask you to go Soldier read one soldier read the

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next because I think it's important for listeners to

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understand what drove those young men to

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burst the gate burst the gates of Gaza and we have to be honest committed

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atrocities so if you don't mind just read it for the listeners of course

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Norman I will happily comply with that and the at the bottom of page um 219 in

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your book Gaza the source that is cited is breaking the silence this is how we

9:18

fought in Gaza soldiers testimonies and photographs from operation protective

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Edge and then afterwards and because you know I don't know what context this will get subsequently used in Norman I'll be

9:30

asking you what the oppositional view to

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everything we're discussing here is when people say that Israel is the only

9:42

country that's ever shown any sort of clemency to Palestine that there never was a nation of Palestine pre 1947 all

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of the common arguments that come up so that we can even in this God I hope

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somewhat neutral or at least the neutrality provided by me being somewhat uninformed and just a broadly speaking

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an advocate for peace and solutions that go beyond military Solutions I uh uh so

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that we can have a conversation that has some tenacity and integrity to it so

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these are the sources that Norman finlin has requested that I use Fearless J says I hope he doesn't do it in his ala voice

10:20

that would not be appropriate Fearless Jay I will do it in a neutral voice this is Soldier 18 when we left after the

10:28

oper it was just a Barren stretch of desert we spoke about it a lot amongst ourselves the guys from the company how

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crazy the amount of damage we did there was I quote listen man it's crazy what went in there listen man we really

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messed them up check it out there's nothing at all left it's nothing but desert now that's crazy 21 Soldier I

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remember that the level of Destruction looked insane to me Source 22 Soldier we

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entered Gaza with an insane amount of Firepower 25 Soldier it all looked looked like a science fiction movie

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serious levels of Destruction everywhere everything was really in Ruins and non-stop fire all the time 30 Soldier

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before the entrance on fo to the Gaza Strip a crazy amount of artillery was fired at the entire area before a tank

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makes any movement it fires every time those guys were trigger happy totally

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crazy 31 Soldier the explosions effects caused major amounts of damage but that

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doesn't interest anyone use it use it explos can't be taken back the platoon Commander says I don't want to leave

11:32

explosives with me 36 Soldier our viewers of the center of the strip let's

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say it was a real fireworks display from a distance it looked pretty cool if you look through a night vision scope you

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saw crazy wreckage it was a real trip 38 Soldier you're shooting at anything that

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moves and also what isn't moving crazy amounts it also becomes a bit like a computer game totally cool and real 49

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Soldier it was total Destruction in there the photos on online are Child's Play compared to what we saw there in

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reality I never saw anything like it 70 Soldier the unfathomable number of dead on one of the sides the unimaginable

12:08

levels of Destruction the way militant cells and people regarded as targets and not as living beings that's something

12:14

that troubles me 74 Soldier it's destruction on a whole other level 94 Soldier the Air Force carries out an

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insane amount of strikes in the Gaza Strip during an operation like protective Edge 96 Soldier shells are

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being fired all the time even if we aren't actually going to enter shells shell shells what happens for 7 days

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straight it's non-stop bombardment that's what happens in practice these are accounts taken from Gaza um read by

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me um and of course it makes chilling reading in particular the one that characterizes those events as being sort

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the kind of homogen homogenized and neutral events that might take place in

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a computer game and of course like in my own sort of analysis of the depictions of violence I've noticed that for want

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of a better term violence practiced by the west and and you know in this in this context perhaps we can incorporate

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Israel into that syntic is often characterized as rational and neutral whereas dissident

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violence is characterized as emotional Savage barbaric when ultimately whether

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you are killed by a drone or an Insurgent it's ultimately a death a

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child murdered is a child murdered a woman or an adult murdered is an murdered so how how do you think if it

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was if you were not sat with Russell brown but you were sat with Ben Shapiro right now what do you imagine you would

13:39

be facing you would I imagine he would say he would give you some descriptions and depictions of October the 7th he

13:44

would talk about the various purges and pogroms and Holocaust perhaps what kind

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of context do you think that your opponents and I recognize it as well your not unique but very particular

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history as I understand your parents are Holocaust survivors obviously you know your name and my knowledge of your

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history is I understand that you are a Jewish man can you um tell me what

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troubles you most about the arguments of uh those that oppose who who who do not

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share your perspective well first of all I have

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welcomed the debate with Ben Shapiro many times he's stupid but not so stupid

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as to appear with me on the same platform and so he has declined

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now what are the arguments to defend this sort of conduct that's described

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here one argument would usually be that it's selective but alas this is not

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selective as you can see from the quotes and I read the whole compendium by breaking the silence there

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were maybe two or three people in the whole 200 Pages who expressed any

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remorse for their actions as you can see from what you read they're just casually

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describing without remorse without guilt uh without pretending to be peac Nicks

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about what they experienced in Gaza so I don't think it's very easy to impeach

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these testimonies by Israeli soldiers themselves now you have to bear in mind

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I am talking about or I should say you are quoting from one

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operation one mowing of the lawn in fact there have been at this

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point at least a dozen Hightech massacres visited on Gaza

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since the year 2000 and I can call quotes from soldiers

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and I did in my book in every one of the massacres

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that Israel has inflicted on Gaza that read exactly as the ones that you just

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recited for your listeners this is standard operating procedure for Israel

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in its Relentless attacks on the people of Gaza

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now what else would be said in defense I suppose because I have to make in order

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to feret out the truth you have to make the best case argument for the other

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side what's called The Devil's Advocate so I will play my own Devil's Advocate

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the best argument is going to be that it was Hamas that broke the

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ceasefires Hamas that's responsible for

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initiating the combat or the war and that Hamas is engaging in human

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shielding and that's why these things happen let's take the last issue first

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as you can see from these testimonies they have the the the

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amounts of Firepower Israel used had nothing to do with human

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shielding they're describing what they call crazy look at the words

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crazy insane amounts of Firepower which are

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randomly indiscriminately being fired on a civilian

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population where does human shielding even come into play here it's not as if

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the combatants are saying we were trying to Target

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combatants but they were being shielded by civilians that's not what the

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testimony says if it did say it I would have put it in the book because I am not

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afraid of truth if that's what said I I

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would have put it in the book and then attempted to explain it but that's not

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what's being said when you get away from the propaganda and the propagandists

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the propaganda of the state of Israel and the propagandists like Mark regev and Ben

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Shapiro what you actually see is Israel

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periodically entering Gaza to mow the lawn the lawn which your listeners

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should bear in mind the lawn half of the blades of

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grass in Gaza there are 2.3 million Blades of grass in

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Gaza I see you're looking at me intently and I appreciate that just like I

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appreciate it from Candace Owens and just as I appreciated from miala

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Peterson you listen and it gradually sinks in that mowing of the lawn means

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2.3 million ion people half of whom are

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children you understand mowing the skull

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of a child that's not being emotive that's not being

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histrionic that's not being theatrical that's

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being factual mowing the skulls of 1.1 1

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million children and are these children being used as human

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Shields look at what they say in this text we are

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indiscriminately randomly using insane crazy amounts of

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Firepower directed at an a civilian

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population so that's one side of the question the other side is who provokes

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these periodic mowings of the lawn let's take one case which is the best

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documented in June 2008 Hamas and Israel reached the

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ceasefire the ceasefire held up until November 4th

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2008 what happened on November 4th President Obama won the presidential

20:59

election in the United States so Israel knew all the cameras would be directed

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The World's cameras would be directed at the United States and the outcome of the

21:12

presidential election Israel at that moment chose elected to break the

21:21

ceasefire and go in and launch what was called back then operation

21:29

castled that lasted from December 26 to January 17 there is no dispute

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whatsoever even Israeli Publications official Israeli Publications

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acknowledge the ceasefire held until November 4th when Israel broke the

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ceasefire and what it eventually ensued on December 26 was

21:59

Operation castled so it's not true that Hamas

22:06

breaks the ceasefires however I want to make a point because I said before I'm

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not afraid of the truth it is not true that the only thing that's needed

22:22

now is a ceasefire a ceasefire has to be number one on the agenda no question

22:30

about it but that number one has to be accompanied by or attended

22:37

by number two which is to end the

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illegal inhuman blockade of Gaza that

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medieval Ser Siege which even the gold stone report which was issued after

22:55

operation castled this described as verging on a crime against

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humanity that blockade has to end or it's true these actions by Hamas or as I

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prefer to say the people of Gaza will recur and recur and recur until and

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unless the population of Gaza has been wiped out has been EXP terminated now

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Israel's goal now is to do just that it decided in October 7th that what

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happened you know the cliche a crisis is also an

23:44

opportunity and Israel realized in October 7th the crisis of the atrocities

23:51

that occurred in October 7th were also an opportunity and the opportunity was

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was to once and for all solve the Gaza

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question and solving the Gaza question meant anywhere from an ethnic cleansing

24:15

to expel the entire population to the Egyptian SI to two making Gaza uninhabitable

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uninhabitable from now until Kingdom Come to three what president prime

24:32

minister Netanyahu said you have to treat the people like of Goda like

24:38

amalec referring to the uh Hebrew Bible

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wipe out every man woman child and

24:49

animal every camel every Fox so that was the opportunity that Israel seized upon

24:58

on October 7th to once and for all find a final solution to the Gaza

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question that amch rhetoric is of course incredibly loaded and customary usage of

25:17

either religious National myth or the kind of colloquialism likely to elicit

25:23

broad public support is often mobilized in the immediate aftermath of crisis in

25:30

order to Curry political favor and to legitimize expedient military action I'm

25:36

thinking of George W Bush's sort of kill these folks in the post 9911 era which

25:42

subsequently has been shown to have been a misguided approach and created more negative consequences than perhaps would

25:49

have been anticipated as well as being targeted in areas that are in retrospect

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inadvisable and inappropri one of the to connect it again to the sort of your reference to AMAC and the

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sort of this um of talmudic reference to extermination I Wonder Norman and I

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think it's vital that your participation and contribution to this conversation is as vital as like when I've seen hidic

26:16

Jews participate in advocacy for peace or my friend Gabel mate talking about a

26:22

requirement for peace because I think it has a particular resonance when survivors of the Holocaust this great scar

26:28

upon the heart of the Jewish people and this significant event in the what has

26:33

led to the establishment of the state of Israel I say this as a dilatant as an outsider and a person who doesn't claim

26:39

to have anything other than a superficial understanding it seems vital to me that people that could legitimately take up a strong position

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on the uh let's call it the other side advocate for uh peace advocate for

26:50

clemency Advocate advocate for tolerance compassion and solution but I feel that

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as I have you here I'd love to ask you how you tackle the idea that um enshrined within Hamas hamas's raise on

27:03

Detra is the extermination of the Jewish people that's something that I've continually used heard to legitimize uh

27:10

extreme military measures I.E you cannot uh and negotiate with terrorists a very

27:15

sort of common Maxim or Axiom in um conflicts of this kind I've heard people

27:20

say that people seem to care less when other Muslim and Arab Nations exterminate Arabs I.E within Syria I've

27:27

also heard people say like when talking about uh The Shield issue that perhaps it's uh as I've heard it rendered is

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it's more that the that that Hamas are within a civilian population and uh you

27:41

know me my personal position is peace peace peace stop War stop War immediately that's my personal position

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just so you don't think that I'm um advocating for these kind of uh what I would regard as extreme and agonizing

27:54

actions but I would say how do you cover ham hamas's rhetoric around genocide

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which rhetorically is com com compatible comparable excuse me to the amalik reference that you made the idea that

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just by being within that Community there is a degree of shielding and uh

28:11

the idea that um that that genocide uh that that sort of the Israeli people

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feel that there is a sort of a peripheral genocide that could be enacted by the sort of numerous hostile

28:24

Nations and people that are uh around them and that this somehow legitimizes

28:31

the sort of ongoing threat of this presence because I suppose you would have to fear that wouldn't you in order

28:37

to be able to you know even the accounts that I read earlier from your book in order to legitimize violence of that

28:43

nature you would have to fear for your own way of life you would have to have the ultimate motivation so again hamas's

28:50

Mo and Raaz onra the idea of shielding within Gaza making it inevitable and the fact that I yes Israel could if they

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wanted to this is another common argument they could wipe out all Gaza and the West Bank and they haven't

29:03

therefore you know like the the Hamas are operating at maximum capacity and Israel aren't so that in that Gap is

29:11

clemency and compassion how do you address those arguments please

29:16

Norman well because I'm on the older side and you're on the younger side

29:21

you're going to have to refresh my memory for each of these questions cuz you just overloaded my memory bank so I

29:29

going to ask you let's start with the first one the Hamas Charter I don't want

29:35

to again to the technicalities here this is not an academic seminar I'll just try

29:40

to make myself brief on this point uh since Hamas won the election in 2006 the

29:47

Parliamentary election in Gaza and even before that but we'll start from 2006

29:54

Hamas has repeatedly made offers to Israel either for what's called a hudna hna

30:01

which just means a long-term ceasefire between Israel and H Israel and uh the

30:07

Palestinians of ceasefire along the ter truce along the roughly about 20 to 30y

30:14

year truce they've made that offer and theyve also made offers to establish a

30:19

Palestinian State along the lines of the international consensus meaning the June

30:25

1967 border Israel within its uh legal borders and a Palestinian state within

30:32

the West Bank including East Jerusalem and Gaza all those peace offerings by

30:37

Hamas were completely rejected by Israel and backed by the United States so it's

30:44

not true the factual record is very clear on that it's not true that Hamas

30:52

was unwilling to reach a reasonable settlement of the conflict it was

30:57

willing to do so but those peace offerings were rejected by Israel and

31:04

the United States out of hand there were not even an ATT there wasn't even an attempt at negotiations which brings me

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to your second question and I want to uh encourage you uh Russell ask me the

31:18

tough questions because it's no point in preaching to the choir you want to reach

31:24

new people and people who have legitimate doubt so you might answer to the question I to

31:31

the reply I just gave you could say yes it's probably true you know more than me

31:37

it's probably true the Hamas made peace offerings but of course Israel rejected

31:42

them how can you negotiate with a terrorist organization and even people like Bernie

31:49

Sanders in the United States during the first month of the Israeli Massac

31:55

Israeli genocide in God he kept saying he's against the ceasefire because you can't negotiate

32:01

with Hamas because Hamas is a terrorist organization now I'm going to ask you

32:07

and your listeners to answer a very simple question it couldn't be simpler

32:13

let's take what I mentioned earlier operation protective Edge between

32:18

December 26 2008 and January 17 2009 let's just take that one example

32:26

the estimates are that during operation

32:32

castled Israel killed about 1,400

32:37

Gins and of whom 350 were children okay

32:43

and it also destroyed 6,300 homes and it laid waste all of Gaza okay and I think

32:51

I can prove to you and all of your listeners what I said earlier this was a completely the unprovoked attack by

32:59

Israel uh it broke the ceasefire it launched the attack now I'd like you and

33:04

your listeners to keep in mind we're talking about one just one of Israel's

33:09

operations operation castl so now let's fast forward to October 7th on October

33:17

7th the estimates are about 1,200 Israelis were killed and of those 1,200

33:24

approximately 30 were children so in terms of numbers obviously the

33:31

total number is roughly in the same ballpark 1400 in castled Gin killed

33:39

12200 Israelis killed on October 7th children it's a very big order of

33:45

magnitude difference 350 children in Gaza about 30 children in Israel now

33:53

here is the very simple question I do not think think it could be any

33:58

simpler if if hamas's terrorist action on October

34:06

7th disqualifies it from negotiating a

34:12

settlement it's a terrorist organization you can't negotiate with negotiate with

34:18

it you have to destroy it then why doesn't

34:24

Israel's terrorist action just in one operation Operation castled why doesn't

34:32

Israel's terrorist action disqualify it from negotiating a settlement if

34:41

Hamas has to be destroyed then it seems to me the state

34:46

of Israel has to be destroyed now I am not advocating that I am simply asking

34:56

you and your listeners what is the error in my logic

35:04

in operation protective Edge in 2014 from which those testimonies you

35:11

read occurred 2200

35:18

2200 Goins were killed 550 were children

35:27

18,000 homes were destroyed If October 7th

35:33

disqualifies Hamas from any participation in a peace settlement then

35:41

operation protective Edge if we look just at the raw numbers must disqual

35:48

disqualify Israel twice as much from any

35:53

settlement of the conflict 1,200 versus

35:58

2200 30 children versus 550 children why

36:05

do the acts of terrorism which I do

36:10

not deny occur but why do they only disqualify one party to reaching the

36:18

settlement but not the other party honestly I like to play my own Devil's

36:25

Advocate that's the way you find truth but try as I do I cannot figure out a

36:33

coherent answer to that question I suppose it must be because of

36:39

the historic relationships between Britain the and the establishment of Israel a kind of a broader set of

36:45

relationships between us Israeli interests in particular where it is

36:51

acknowledged and understood that there are certain types of military violence

36:57

that are in a taxonomize as rational logical necessary and other sets of

37:04

violence that are seen as provocative whether it's the events around 911 or

37:10

the numerous times that Britain is a former colonial power he enacted

37:16

violence on people of India various African nations the people of Ireland

37:21

legitimizing it as sort of the kind of necessary control against of savages or

37:26

or groups of people that are regarded as having less rights I suppose if you don't have a general consensus that all

37:34

human life has a particular value then you are I suppose on the pathway to

37:40

being able to legitimize certain types of violence and justify certain types of death and I think that we all understand

37:46

that and that sadly is not something that is particular to Israel which is another um argument that I've heard used

37:54

that you know that the United States of America that Britain have all practiced this kind of power it's almost I suppose

38:00

comparable to the kind of climate arguments that we've been made why are you going to prevent India having an an

38:05

industrial revolution or China having an industrial revolution when our I say our

38:11

when by I mean Western sort of anglophonic Nations have had our industrial uh industrial revolutions now

38:16

I recognize it's a lot more emotive evocative and important perhaps you know when we're talking about the murder of

38:22

children no one can um countenance that that that there could be anything more

38:27

important than that but what I suppose I'm saying like to just I would like to just briefly comment yes I go back a

38:35

long way I was involved in the anti-war movement against the war in Vietnam I

38:40

was involved when I got older in the civil rights movement and by the time I was in graduate school I was involved in

38:47

the anti-ar movement so I would be the last one to deny I would be the last one

38:54

on God's Earth to deny the crimes the uh the war crimes crimes against humanity

39:01

and in some cases such as the bombing of Nagasaki and harosa they have to be

39:06

qualified as acts of genocide I would be the last one to deny that ugly record

39:13

however I didn't support it I opposed it

39:19

so I don't think I can be legitimately accused of holding a double standard or

39:24

an anti-semitic standard if I oppos in uh what Israel is doing in the same way

39:29

as I opposed the war in Vietnam I opposed aparti uh and I opposed the um vicious

39:36

assault and African-Americans before enjoining the Civil Rights Movement

39:42

however having said that we have to be clear and honest about what's happening

39:50

now right now there is a declared a

39:55

declared gen genocide being committed by the Israeli government against the

40:00

people of Gaza it's not indirect it's not obscure it's not ambiguous it's a

40:08

declared genocide being committed against the people of Gaza the magnitude of death and

40:16

destruction that's been inflicted on the people of Gaza in the past two months is makes every other war in the

40:25

20th centur and in part in 21st century and in part in the 20th century in part

40:31

in the 20th century haale by comparison there's simply no comparison between the

40:38

density of the bombing the the ratio of

40:43

Civilian to military deaths the percentage of children and women as

40:52

against men who have been killed there is no comparison with any other conflict in the 21st

40:59

century be it Afghanistan be it Iraq be it Ukraine there is a a a lightyear

41:09

separate what uh I should say a Chasm separates what Israel has been doing

41:16

with any other conflict in the 21st century and in some cases even the 20th

41:22

century in terms of combatant to civilian race itio of deaths I would

41:28

also say that Israel

41:33

has crossed a negative threshold of

41:40

barbarism and I use my words very carefully Israel has crossed a negative

41:49

threshold of barbarism in so far as this is the only

41:55

conflict to my knowledge now I cannot say for the Nazis during World War II

42:01

because I'm not certain but it's the only conflict to my knowledge where as a

42:08

matter of open State policy Israel has been

42:16

targeting hospitals in Gaza now I want you to listen to me carefully

42:22

Russell I go back to the war in Vietnam and I was active in the anti-war

42:28

movement and I have a searing memory of that war there are many memories but one

42:34

in particular during Christmas

42:40

1972 the United States bombed bakai hospital for your listeners who are

42:45

interested it's spelled B- a new word Mai Israel Bond bakai

42:53

hospital and that that atrust the is excuse me the US Bomb b my hospital that

43:00

atrocity which of course the US denied and said it was an accident and it was a mistake is seared in the memory of

43:08

everyone who passed through that war in fact when I was a graduate student I set

43:16

up a table at the front of my library where I collected money to help rebuild

43:24

bachai Hospital and Bak my hospital by the way was rebuilt by American donations people not

43:31

the government forget Kissinger may he burn in hell no it was by people ordinary people who gave to rebuild a

43:39

hospital the bombing of a hospital until this Israeli genocide in

43:48

Gaza was literally Unthinkable as a official open

43:57

State practice let me enter those qualifiers again as an official open

44:05

State practice it was Unthinkable and now Israel has crossed

44:14

that negative threshold of barbarism by

44:21

routinely methodically systematically bombing the hospitals in

44:28

Gaza so even as I am the last person on

44:33

God's Earth having been raised on a mental diet of reading professor chomsky's

44:43

chronicling of us crimes around the world I am the last person on God's

44:50

Earth to deny the magnitude and the horror of the crimes inflicted by my

44:57

government on States and peoples around the world but the fact nonetheless

45:04

remains that by some basic metrics what Israel has been doing in

45:10

Gaza is in a class a category all its

45:16

own and certain of its actions the targeting of

45:22

hospitals marks a negative the Crossing of a negative threshold into barbarism

45:31

if you search your memory now you CL you say you're a lay person that's fine each

45:36

person has his or her contribution to make to humanity to make Humanity a better place and yours might not be

45:43

sitting in a library or sitting at your desk reading books but if you search your memory hard I do not think you can

45:51

come up with a single example of an official State policy of targeting

45:59

hospitals that is an innovation that Israel has now brought

46:06

into the public domain and has now legitimized for all future Wars and

46:16

state actions what Israel has done it has

46:21

legitimated the targeting of hospitals in the course Civil

46:26

War I understand uh also I feel that we must talk about the nature of propaganda

46:34

I've heard people say that um that you know when hostages were released that

46:40

they were actors I've heard people say that the stories indeed of bombing hospitals were not true I Wonder Norman

46:49

from your somewhat unique position making these claims given your personal

46:54

history and your family history if you believe that anti-Semitism plays a role

47:00

in the criticisms of Israel and Israel actions even if that

47:06

anti-Semitism is uh being grafted onto even if we were to take everything that

47:11

you are saying as the only version of events that we can countenance and I'm

47:17

in my in my mind I'm trying to continually hold if um matters were as

47:22

simple as they are described by either side then we would not have Conflict at all

47:28

indeed conflict is where two realities are completely in collision with one another and this occurs only when one

47:34

side has extremely powerful propaganda and influence or when there are viable

47:40

perspectives to be had I say this with a complete and total respect for the version of events that you have conveyed

47:46

but also as I've said from throughout this as a person from gra in Essex in

47:52

the UK an English person who has only the Affinity of the heart with all of

47:57

the people that are suffering as a result of this conflict and all of the evident exploitation that's happening

48:03

throughout Elite establishment interest I refer entirely now to military-industrial complex exploitation

48:09

of both the Ukraine Russia war and this escalating conflict uh in the region that we are discussing today I I ask do

48:16

you believe that anti-Semitism is grafted on to this

48:22

conflict even if we take everything that you've said is entirely true and as you I'm not arguing with you I'm listening

48:27

to you uh do you think that that there that anti-Semitism is on the rise do you think the anti-semites have a uh that

48:34

there is an anti-semitic opposition to the state of Israel do you think that there is a an a unique perspective and

48:40

set of Standards applied to Israel that are not applied to the United States and I've heard your arguments there about

48:45

sort of what you regard as unique um sort of targeting of particular public

48:51

institutions um do as a Jewish man and as a child of Holocaust Survivors do you

48:57

feel that anti-Semitism is grafted onto this conflict in any way or used to

49:04

legitimize anti-semitic tropes or arguments Russ so you use the word

49:11

grafted I would use the word inevitable spillover what do I mean by that I'll

49:19

give you a personal example my late father as I suppose you

49:24

know he was in the war ghetto then he was in aitz and he was in the aitz death march now my late father hated not Nazis

49:33

let me be clear about it my late father hated Germans not Nazis Germans so I

49:42

remember he was once reading a book by a Russian author my father knew Russian he

49:48

was reading he was polish but he knew Russian he was reading a book by a Russian author and he recommended the

49:55

book to to me why did he recommend the book to me he said because in this book

50:01

they don't refer to Nazis they refer to Germans I remember that I was not happy

50:09

with that with what he was saying but I recognized that given what happened to

50:16

him there was an inevitable spillover from hating Nazis to hating

50:24

Germans because Germany was a Nazi state for a period of time we can't deny

50:33

that Germany was a Nazi state in the

50:38

1950s when the United States was carrying on all sorts of activities around the world to destabilize

50:45

governments and overthrow governments which are viewed as hostile to its elements a famous book came out you can

50:52

even Google it it was called the ugly American it wasn't called The Ugly

51:00

CIA it wasn't called The Ugly US Army the Ugly

51:08

American again an inevitable spillover from the activities of our

51:16

government many of which by the way most Americans were completely unaware of an inevitable spillover from the

51:24

government to the people now how can it come as a

51:31

surprise if Israel calls itself a Jewish

51:36

state if Israel calls itself the state of the Jewish

51:43

people if all the official organizations in the UK the Jewish

51:52

organizations support the actions of Israel how can it come as a

52:01

surprise given the examples I just gave if there's not a spillover from the

52:09

self-proclaimed Jewish state which claims the genocide it's committing in

52:16

Gaza is in the name of the Jewish people

52:22

and your British board of Jewish deputies backs to the hilt all of these

52:32

genocidal actions it would be a very big surprise

52:39

if there weren't a spillover from hating that genocidal state to also bearing a

52:48

large amount of animists towards Jews in general but having said said that having

52:57

said that I want to also say that one of the most

53:04

redeeming inspiring aspects of the

53:09

horror currently being inflicted in Gaza is the number of

53:16

self-identified Jews in particular Jewish voices for

53:22

peace or the organization not in our name who now stand in the

53:31

Forefront the Vanguard of the opposition to this genocidal War if you take any of

53:40

not any but most of the big anti-genocide actions in the United

53:46

States in the past two months at Grand Central Station in New York at the

53:52

Statue of Liberty at numerous sites always in the front in the

54:01

Vanguard and as a Jordanian friend of me said friend of mine said the other day

54:07

he said you have to be honest about it the most the best organized and the most

54:15

aggressive opponents of the Israeli genocide are

54:20

Jewish so in my opinion number one it puts the lie to the claim that this

54:29

opposition to the genocide Springs from anti-Semitism and I also have to say by

54:37

Jews being in the Forefront the Vanguard of the opposition to the

54:44

genocide they do the most to dispel and

54:50

dissipate the anti-Semitism whereas the British British Board of

54:57

deputies that monstrosity named Dame Margaret

55:03

Haj they are the ones in the Vanguard and the Forefront of

55:12

fomenting anti-Semitism in fact they are by a wide

55:19

margin the main fermentors of anti-semitism

55:25

in the western world it's the Dame hajes not the Jews fighting the genocide

55:35

who are the main fermentors of anti-Semitism in the western world today

55:40

Norman I've got two good questions actually both from one person on the stream here K cotas he asks how would

55:49

you respond he or she yeah he he respond asked how would you respond to people like Sam Harris and Bill Mah who argued

55:54

that you can't make an equivalency can you just scroll back a little bit guys so I can just see that question again thank you so much uh you can't make an

56:01

equivalency moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas who don't accept women's rights believe gays should be

56:06

exe executed in theocracy that's one question about the moral equivalency from sort of public intellectual stroke

56:12

media figures like Sam Harris and Bill Mah you can't make a moral equivalency because of uh the let's call it lack of

56:19

progressivism sort of within Islam and presumably therefore within Hamas and

56:25

the also K cotas is asking about the influence of uh his term Israeli

56:31

propaganda apparatus on Western media so the two questions are how would you

56:37

address like Sam Harris and Bill Mah saying you can't compare Israel and Israel and like yeah like you know Ben

56:42

Shapiro as well would say like you know Israel is a democracy um you know there are like Palestinians are moving in and

56:49

out of uh Israel he would say and uh you know and and and of course yeah this idea about of women's rights and ideas

56:55

around of sexual equality and sexual Freedom uh and and then you know how um

57:02

also from K cot on our stream our live stream uh how the Israeli his words

57:07

Israeli propaganda apparatus influences Western media so two pretty big questions there Norman I I wonder if you

57:12

what your thoughts yeah I I I'm going to ask him uh Russell to refresh my memory if I I don't want to be I don't want to

57:19

appear to be evading a question so if I forget to answer it okay just refresh my memory uh first of all I'm not going to

57:27

deny that there are many regressive in my opinion regressive practices uh in

57:33

the Muslim world in the Arab world and in Gaza that's being disingenuous and I

57:38

don't intend to be disingenuous however first of all I do not believe that bears on the question

57:46

of whether a people has the right to self-determination and the people of Gaza under international law the people

57:53

of Gaza and the West bank I should the Palestinian people under international law constitute what's legally called a

58:01

uh people and as a people they have the right to self-determination and that right has

58:07

been denied to them for 75 years so everything that's what's being said can

58:13

be and in my opinion is true however it doesn't in the least bear on the

58:20

question of whether the people of uh whether the Palestinian people have the

58:26

right to self-determination and more to the point let's say everything you say

58:31

about women's rights and sexual rights in Gaza is true let's say it's all true

58:37

and I'm not going to deny that large parts of it are true I'm not going to does that mean you have the right to

58:43

confine people in the concentration camp does that give you the right to

58:49

emure people in a concentration camp does that give you that right

58:55

now before we act so Superior to these people I'll tell you something and I'm

59:01

not negating what the Sam harrises and the Ben shapiros and that ilk have to

59:09

say I have never seen in the Arab world as much homelessness as in the United

59:14

States what does that say about our culture in the Arab world up until now

59:21

it may change confining your parents in the old age home is that idea they can't

59:28

even compute you put your parents in an old age home where do you have more respect

59:34

for parents where do you have more respect for elders we should before we carry on so

59:42

as if we're so Superior to other parts of the world you know the

59:48

passage um clear the plank from your eye before

59:55

you examine the speck in another person's eye and some PE sometimes people don't

1:00:02

see the plank in their eye all they see is the horrors elsewhere in my city I

1:00:09

don't want to get involved now in a tangent but just as a point in my city

1:00:15

the streets are Laden with homeless people the Subways are filled with

1:00:21

homeless people and all these skyscrapers have gone up these you know

1:00:26

50 75 floor skyscrapers and you know what you're ready for this they're all

1:00:33

empty they're all empty because Arab shakes Russian billionaires Chinese

1:00:40

billionaires they buy the houses now I ask you Russell what

1:00:47

verdict will be rendered on our civilization in a 100 years that we we

1:00:56

confined tens of thousands of people my city tens of thousands of people to

1:01:02

homelessness in streets and Subways when half the new

1:01:09

buildings that have gone up are empty

1:01:14

they're empty people purchase them just as an investment and never use them so

1:01:22

unlike Mr Harris and Mr Shapiro I try to be a little more humble or humbler

1:01:29

before rendering judgment on other countries other societies other

1:01:36

Traditions even as I acknowledge they have many regressive

1:01:43

features now you said how can I compare Hamas with Israel Israel is a

1:01:51

democracy let's ask ourselves a simple question

1:01:56

um the Israeli the main Israeli human rights organization for the occupied

1:02:02

territories it's called bet selum bet selum okay and bet selum put out a

1:02:08

report a few years ago and the report said I'm directing myself to you and to

1:02:16

listeners the report said let's stop kidding ourselves there's only one state

1:02:21

from the Mediterranean to the Jordan Israel is not occupying the West Bank in

1:02:27

Gaza anymore they're all part of one state because it's been that way since

1:02:34

1967 it's more than 50 years so de facto it's one state so they said we have only

1:02:41

one state it includes Israel proper the West Bank and Gaza there's one state

1:02:51

that one state has about4 million people okay about roughly 14 million

1:02:58

people of those 14 million people five million of those people namely the

1:03:05

citizens in the West Bank in Gaza or the people in the West Bank in Gaza they have no

1:03:10

rights they don't have a right of voting they don't have a right of citizenship they have zero rights zero literally

1:03:17

zero rights okay and the Arabs in Israel about 2 million they have rights not not

1:03:26

equal rights but some rights so now I have to ask your question or a simple

1:03:32

question if you have 14 million people in the state five million of those 14 million

1:03:40

have no rights whatsoever none and two million have what you might

1:03:46

call second or third class citizen rights does that sound to you like a

1:03:53

democracy where half the population has either no or second or

1:04:00

third class rights does that sound to you like a democracy does it sound to me

1:04:05

like one actually I think you sort opened a line of analyses when you said that there we do not have the moral

1:04:13

authority to arbitrate between different CI models of civilization that we are in

1:04:19

a sort of in the kind of lens that Edward SED would have applied not able to presume that our culture is more

1:04:26

advanced and that there is but one trajectory or teleology of what along which cultures progress and it's plain

1:04:34

that our own set of somewhat nihilistic values derived from materialism and

1:04:40

rationalism have left us in the kind of cultural Despair and uncertainty that means that there are few people that are

1:04:47

confident to condemn few people that are confident in taking up a position when our own democracies increase ly look

1:04:54

like veils for different types of autocracy whether that's the new and

1:05:00

emerging digital tyrannies that we are beginning to experience the new uh uh St

1:05:08

heavily stratified Nations that both of us are living within now where new

1:05:13

extremes of poverty are regularly tolerated where life expectancy that famous marker of progress is finally

1:05:21

descending in the United States of America where people feel disconnected lost and a drift perhaps it's within

1:05:28

this context that we are unable to offer a position come from a position of

1:05:35

legitimate moral authority to to even evaluate where our affiliations might

1:05:40

lie perhaps it's easy to take shortcuts and to support just based on rhetoric

1:05:47

and artifice the kind of affinities that evidently exist between the Nations that

1:05:54

that we are discussing for plainly they do if the recent un vote is anything to go by with the um you know with the sort

1:06:01

of with the blocking of a potential ceasefire that's just taken place in the last couple of days so I would like you

1:06:07

listening to you now it sounds like democracy itself is in trouble progressivism itself is in trouble

1:06:15

neoliberalism has reached the kind of Tipping Point and indeed like you know whether we want to look at broadening

1:06:22

cultural frames you no one can make any whether genocide is genocide and the annihilation of a people is the

1:06:28

annihilation of people whether those people are Jewish or Arab or you know

1:06:33

whatever other category of genocide I think you know there's a reason that word has such sort of incredible power within it but it seems to me that you

1:06:40

know when we sort of look at when did this conflict start we've got a lot of

1:06:45

questions to answer about how we found oursel in this position and how will

1:06:50

this conflict end even weightier question question Norman and I I I have

1:06:56

to say that that the type of let's say compassion embodied in your own

1:07:03

transition at least culturally is certainly a path that many many people are going to have to walk if there's

1:07:09

going to be anything like a resolution in this issue many many people are going to have to radically alter their

1:07:15

perspective if there's going to be a solution Beyond unimaginable conflagration and genocide many people

1:07:21

are going to have to take I would say just in that note actually there's

1:07:28

reason for optimism on that score the evidence is

1:07:34

overwhelming that large masses of people in the United States in the UK and

1:07:41

elsewhere they don't need to have their thinking renovated they have a very

1:07:46

clear sense that what Israel is doing in Gaza is utterly Criminal

1:07:54

and that the US's support for that criminality is equally criminal if you

1:08:03

look at the polls in the United States 70% of young people 70% of young

1:08:11

people oppose Israel's genocidal war in Gaza a large percentage of

1:08:20

Democrats judging from the most recent polls

1:08:26

oppose President Biden's blanket support for Israel and I supect you'll find the

1:08:33

same percentages in the UK my my memory is that very large

1:08:40

demonstration you had in London a few weeks ago it was one of the largest

1:08:45

demonstrations of popular opposition to war in your nation's

1:08:51

history so in my view the problem is not the thinking of

1:08:58

Ordinary People Ordinary People know

1:09:03

there's something wrong when a Hightech stake is murdering in broad

1:09:12

daylight women children old people targeting hospitals laying waste laying

1:09:21

waste to entire towns and cities There Are Places now in Gaza like

1:09:28

banon which used to have 35,000 people now you go there it's a howling

1:09:37

Wilderness a howling Wilderness people understand that the problem is not that

1:09:45

Ordinary People are Brainwashed the problem it's the

1:09:51

greed the lust for power of a handful a

1:09:57

handful of parasites and murderers they're the

1:10:03

problem that handful of parasites and

1:10:08

murderers who have not a corner of their

1:10:14

heart able to reach out to the suffering of ordinary people be it a homeless

1:10:22

person in the streets of London or a child in Gaza their hearts have been so

1:10:31

hardened and innerd by their grieve and

1:10:36

their lust for power they are the problem if I can use the expression that

1:10:44

came to pass beginning with the Occupy Movement in 19 the Occupy

1:10:51

Movement we the 99% we the 99% are not the problem that

1:11:03

1% they are the problem Norman thank you very much and I I feel that over the

1:11:08

course of this conversation while plainly you have extremely clear well

1:11:14

informed and passionate views which we know that many people will strongly oppose that is the nature of this

1:11:20

conflict I feel that when we talk about establishment corrupt ion a billion billionaire class of all denominations

1:11:27

Beyond religious or racial affinity and the interest of ordinary people as characterized by that great Maxim

1:11:34

emerging from the Occupy Movement the 1% versus the 99% perhaps we find territory

1:11:40

where we might progress together in decentralized autonomous communities

1:11:46

where people have individual cultural traditional religious Progressive freedom freedom from censorship freedom

1:11:54

from external control the right to live without exploitative an exploitative class of people of any religious or

1:12:01

denomination imposing violence uh both military ideological political and

1:12:07

financial upon them Norman thank you so much for joining us today I appreciate the time you've taken and I appreciate

1:12:13

your passion thank you so much for the opportunity to look at this book Gaza and also you can order Norman's new book

1:12:20

I'll burn that bridge when I get to it heretical thoughts on identity polic ICS cancel culture and academic freedom you

1:12:27

can get that at norman.com Norman thank you very much for joining us today thank you so much

1:12:34

for having me hey thanks for watching if you want to see more uncensored content where Free Speech can flourish join our

1:12:40

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